Thread: Troy Davis executed in Georgia
Results 26 to 39 of 39
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29th Sep 2011, 11:37 AM #26so how do we decide what is the 'civilised' way to deal with criminals?
There are good arguments against the death penalty. For example, a person may reform and become a benefit to society. Or a person may be sent to death when they are not guilty, humans are always capable of mistakes. It also sends out a message about your society - that if someone wrongs you then you should take revenge, maybe kill them.
The main rational argument in favour, that the death sentence is a deterrent, is flawed because a person committing a crime generally believes that they will not get caught.
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29th Sep 2011, 11:41 AM #27
I think most of us here are, to be fair, against the death penalty for one reason or the other.
The argument we seem to be having is over the definition of a "civilized" society
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29th Sep 2011, 11:50 AM #28
But my point is that people in the civilised society already do that, and they come to different conclusions, or is everyone who advocates the death penalty stupid, unreasoning, illogical and compassionless? There are no ultimate rules for any of those aspects apart from logic, and logic tends to go out of the window when dealing with crimes of the type that the death penalty may be used for.
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29th Sep 2011, 12:24 PM #29
No, it's just that I don't think there are any good arguments in favour of the death penalty. People who are in favour obviously have their own reasons for thinking that, but I am certain (stronger than 'I believe') those reasons are flawed. In our society, with the wealth of resources at our disposal, there surely cannot be any good reason why a person should be murdered by the state.
Then again, we only really got rid of the death penalty in the last century. I'm sure that if there are any people in the future, they'll look back at us as being barbaric for things we don't realise we're doing. It gives us the sense that society is progressing.
There are no ultimate rules for any of those aspects apart from logic
logic tends to go out of the window when dealing with crimes of the type that the death penalty may be used for
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29th Sep 2011, 12:54 PM #30
Just as they are certain yours are. I don't support the death penalty personally, but that doesn't mean every argument in favour of it is flawed, I just disagree with it. If we all thought our own arguments were flawed we'd never be able to make any decisions. And when it comes to making law, you can't dismiss them with 'I don't agree'.
In our society, with the wealth of resources at our disposal, there surely cannot be any good reason why a person should be murdered by the state.
In some ways. Society has to decide what is 'right' and 'wrong', doesn't it? And there are usually good reasons why actions are deemed 'legal' or 'illegal'.
Which is why we have laws.
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29th Sep 2011, 1:14 PM #31And when it comes to making law, you can't dismiss them with 'I don't agree'.
There are also people who hold totally abhorent views, such as thinking all minorities should be rounded up and killed etc. So where do you draw the line at who is 'right' about these things? You can't dismiss people who think that the state should round up the gypsies and stick them in a bonfire with 'I don't agree'.
Why does he deserve to live out his life when he has denied so many people theirs in such a despicable way?
Indeed, but those reasons are all still based on very subjective criteria.
Both laws, both made by humans in civilised societies. Which is right?
A person who commits a murder can still have a family, loved ones, friends, a life. What about their suffering? Then perhaps they should suffer, to increase the happiness of the victim's relatives and satisfy their need for revenge. Or not? Is every person who kills another an evil, irredemable psychopath - a devil? What about the beaten housewife who kills because it's the only way out of her life?
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29th Sep 2011, 2:33 PM #32
Of course not, but being a minority isn't a crime. Civilised societies, I am sure we'd agree, don't round up people and kill them just because they don't like them and they haven't done anything.
Because he's a human being. Because someone treats you despicably, does that give you the right to treat them just as badly?
And the whole point about taxes I find repugnant. When dealing with issues of right and wrong, life and death I think people are too ready to bring it down to monetary value.
The one that causes the least misery, suffering and death.
1: A man of 19 kills three members of a family, is arrested, sentenced to death and executed.
2: A man of 19 kills three members of a family, is arrested, sentenced to 20 years, is released at age 36, and goes and kills three members of another family before he is again arrested. Both familes now live in fear of him being released again later on, while he is still only in his fifties and more than capable of re-offending.
A person who commits a murder can still have a family, loved ones, friends, a life. What about their suffering?
Is every person who kills another an evil, irredemable psychopath - a devil? What about the beaten housewife who kills because it's the only way out of her life?
Once again, I do not support the death penalty, but I do not think it is as clear cut as 'it has no place in civilised society' when civilisation is such a subjective concept.
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29th Sep 2011, 4:58 PM #33Once again, I do not support the death penalty, but I do not think it is as clear cut as 'it has no place in civilised society' when civilisation is such a subjective concept.
Civilisation: a society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations); "the people slowly progressed from barbarism to civilization"
So semantically speaking, you are correct. Taking it's purest definition, we are just as civilised as Germany under the Third Reich, or Communist China.
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29th Sep 2011, 7:15 PM #34
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29th Sep 2011, 7:31 PM #35
Well, call me simplistic but:
Initially, Davis was convited by a jury of twelve - seven blacks, five whites. They heard that his gang nickname was "RAH" - standing for Rough As Hell, and was pistol-whipping a homeless man before Officer MacPhail intervened.
Following his initial conviction - by a predominantly black jury - each court that re-examined his case found his original conviction to be on legally solid ground. Last year, the Supreme Court took the unprecented decision to appoint a District Judge to scrutinise further hearings because seven of nine eyewitnesses had apparently recanted their testimony.
Davis' own lawyers decided not to call two of those seven to the stand, immediately negating their testimony. Judge William Moore, the aforementioned District Judge, stated in his judgement that by not calling those two witnesses to the stand, they were deliberately avoiding testimony that would not stand up in court, but would give significant publicity to Davis' case. Another two of the seven who had supposedly altered their statement actually hadn't, while two more were found to be extremely unreliable. That leaves only one eyewitness who recanted with any value in court, against four who stated that they saw Davis shoot MacPhail. Moore's 174-page ruling dismissed Davis' lawyers "new" evidence as little more than "smoke and mirrors"
The case itself was upheld by the US Supreme Court - twice. On both occasions, by a Court that contains four Liberal Judges (let us not forget that Judicial appointments in the US are political), and not one of them considered there to be enough reasonable doubt to negate his sentence.
It is precisely because of the high level of scrutiny that this case has been under, that I do believe that Davis was guilty.
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29th Sep 2011, 11:06 PM #36
How do you define the difference between revenge and punishment though? Punishment surely has some element of vengeance in it? The whole judicial system revolves around punishment. As much as sometimes we might like to believe it's all about rehabilitation, this is only a component of it. Sentences are not given out on an individual basis based on the amount of time it is expected to take to rehabilitate someone. People don't complain about sentences being reduced from 10 years to 3 years because they are worried that 3 years won't be long enough to make them into nice people. People want to see criminals punished for their crimes. People want to see criminals who commit more severe crimes receive longer sentences or harsher punishments, and it clearly isn't because more serious crimes require longer periods of rehabilitation.
I guess all I'm really saying here is let's not pretend that capital punishment it revenge, but that prison sentences are caring rehabilitation. It's a bit more grey than that.
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30th Sep 2011, 10:31 AM #37
How can there be? How is morality defined? We can reach a majority concensus but there can't be any absolutes.
The Romans had the death penalty; they also had slavery. If the US brought back slavery, that certainly wouldn't be a 'good' thing.
Taking it's purest definition, we are just as civilised as Germany under the Third Reich
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30th Sep 2011, 10:36 AM #38
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1st Oct 2011, 6:06 PM #39
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