Rate and Discuss 6.13: The Wedding of River Song

[Andrew Curnow]

When did River fall in love with the Doctor?

I agree with Jason, I don't really 'believe' that bit, because in her time she's only really met him once.

[SiHart]

One more question though.... I thought River was taken back to Stormcage at the end of the Angel story, so how did she manage to drop in on Amy & Rory for a boozy evening?

Well she's always escaping from that Stormcage facility, so presumably she just walked out again.

[Darren]

Hmmmm....the Tesselecta can't regenerate and didn't regenerate, that's why the Dr died.

No. When the Doctor/Tesselecta was hit the first few times he/it began regenerating. River shot him/it again and the regeneration was cancelled out.

[Darren]

I may be wrong, but wasn't Darren's point that the 'Doctor' gets shot once, then starts to regenerate, then is shot again mid-regen' to make sure he's dead. But how could the Tesselecta machine even start to regenerate?

I have to admit, as sad as it is, I've had a semi-sleepless night wrestling with this episode. Because, as I say, I really, really enjoyed it while it was on. And if I was 8 or 9, I'm certain those ideas would stay with me forever - so just as, in 1979, my imagination was fired by concepts like the perpetual stalemate of Destiny, or the CET machine, or the thought of a being living 12 separate but linked lives in 12 different times... so the kids of now will be blown away, but never forget, the image of skulls that are alive, or even more brain-frying, it always being 5:02 and time all happening at once. And just as I can't see a picture of the Mona Lisa without thinking about her eyebrows, I guess the 10 year olds now won't be able to see the pyramids without thinking of Area 52.

One more question though.... I thought River was taken back to Stormcage at the end of the Angel story, so how did she manage to drop in on Amy & Rory for a boozy evening?

That was my point, yes.

[Andrew Curnow]

Sorry, I didn't mean to speak for you Darren, I just wasn't sure whether you were still around to see 456's post.

[Darren]

That's fine.

[Martin Curnow]

I must admit, I'm also not quite sure how "time is happening all at once" equates to flying cars. The other images (Dickens on TV, steamtrains in London today) more or less make sense, but not the cars.

The more I think about it, the less satisfying I've found it. Plus it makes it very difficult to discuss anything properly, when there's probably the "ah yes, but that hasn't been explained yet" card to be played. So why does the Doctor rush off at the end of AGMGTW? Or why is the young Melody in the spacesuit? Or Mels in Leadworth? Why did the TARDIS go loopy at the end of series 5? It's like getting to the end of a book, only to find it's actually the first in a three volume set, and nothing really makes sense yet.

Dear Mr Unsatisfied of Biggleswade,

The Curnows in this household consider this to be the best episode of the season. Certainly, it's the only one I' re-watched later the same evening.

Yours etc

[Rob McCow]

But how could the Tesselecta machine even start to regenerate?

I dunno, but I reckon it could do some whizzy lights that looked like regeneration.

I think that's one of the old things where the production team reckon that the episode zipping along like a Japanese Bullet Train is more important than nailing down every detail. Which some people disagree with!

[Perry Vale]

Had somewhat of a sleepless night too (like Andrew), and have rewatched it again now. I did really enjoy it, and will enjoy watching it many times to come, I'm sure, but I can't escape it was somewhat of a letdown from last year's finale.

What I didn't like :-

Last year's cheat was clever, and likeably cheeky. This wasn't. As pointed out, how did the Tesselecta do all that regenerating. A quick line could have made it more satisfying, say the Tardis (inside) channeled some vortex energy or something.

The fact that "the question" is unknown, but big fat blue bloke knew it.

The CGI for recreating the scene at the lake was very poor.

What I did like :-

The misdirection of the soothsayer's identity, whom I first believed to be Rory.

The multiple eyepatches.

Winston Churchill.

Captian Williams, yet another brilliant performance from Darvill.

"We should get a coffee. And married."

The Dalek scene.

Matt Smith, more great stuff, especially "You embarrass me."

Live chess.

The absolutely beautiful Brigadier scene, I can't understand why anyone is having a problem with it. To get an onscreen closure is great in itself, but to do so in the season finale is the best tribute you can give, imo. The scene's scripting worked perfectly for me.

Lots more.


Still don't know how to vote it, but somewhere between an 8 and a 9.

[Logo Polish]

One more question though.... I thought River was taken back to Stormcage at the end of the Angel story, so how did she manage to drop in on Amy & Rory for a boozy evening?

She does say, at the end of the former story, that she may have done enough to get a pardon, she maybe she's been freed?

[Anthony Williams]

I feel that this story redeemed some of the major arc stuff that I had problems with earlier in the season. But not all.

Things I liked:

I loved the screwed-up timeline. I felt that that was so wonderfully bonkers - Area 52 in the pyramids, Churchill as Caesar, huge train networks. Marvellous!

The Brigadier's death. I nearly shed a tear. Even Whitney was "awwww"ing at that.

Matt Smith. In general.

Live Chess

Those SKULLS! We both felt that that was possibly one of the creepiest and most disturbing things ever realised on screen in Doctor Who.

The Dalek scene. I'm one of those people who feels that they were vastly overused in the RTD years, but I felt that that scene was really rather well done.


Things I didn't like:

Well, it was all a bit of a reset, wasn't it? Again.

River Song. Zzzzzzz.

The question. Obvious, obvious and more obvious. And to be honest, it's a symptom of his "fame" - which is something that has supposedly now been dispelled, with his "death".

And on that note, how did the Tessalecta look like it was regenerating? I guess that's another question that will never get answered.

Still far too many unanswered questions, despite Moff's promises.

While Amy's whole kidnapped daughter thing got somewhat of a resolution, I still think it was poorly done through the second half of the season, where she just didn't seem to care. As I've said before, if you don't want to have to explore the consequences, don't put it in the arc.

---

Overall, I really enjoyed the episode - it brought the fun back into Doctor Who, which is something that I felt was missing from every other Moffat-penned episode this season (with the obvious exception of A Christmas Carol). This was by no means perfect, but I gave it a solid 7/10.

[Logo Polish]

And on that note, how did the Tessalecta look like it was regenerating? I guess that's another question that will never get answered.

I don't think that this one needs to be a problem. All it had to do was emit a few waves of yellow light, and if it can already affect its appearance enough to transform itself into physical doubles of anyone, it's not that much of a reach, surely?

[Andrew Curnow]

The absolutely beautiful Brigadier scene, I can't understand why anyone is having a problem with it. To get an onscreen closure is great in itself, but to do so in the season finale is the best tribute you can give, imo. The scene's scripting worked perfectly for me.

Absolutely agree. Thank goodness me & Perry can finally agree on something with this season!1 I thought it did exactly what it should do - it mattered to the Doctor, and moved the plot on, while at the same time being just that respectful little nod. I wouldn't have wanted the episode to effectively freeze for a moment to focus just on the Brigadier's death, it was just a moment, a nicely-done moment, that didn't feel shoehorned in, or superfluous. The Brigadier helping the Doctor right to the end.

The more I think about it, the more I have to admire, if not necessarily enjoy, Moffat's craftiness with this season. Because it occurred to me today that actually, all this season has REALLY been about (arcwise) is setting up the business of there being this Question thing. The business about the Doctor's death is actually pretty secondary to that, it's just been a means to that end - and also a means of having a big finale which actually isn't really a finale at all. So we had a huge mystery to conclude yesterday, ie resolving The Doctor's Death... but it turns out that isn't what it's about anyway - it's about WHY the Silence want him dead. Breathtaking.

I think after the season opener, while busily frowning and scratching my head in confusion, I said I'd probably enjoy rewatching these episodes more once I knew the ending. And I think that will probably be true, and that I'll perhaps be more appreciative of what's felt a pretty uneven season when I rewatch them later. I still think the handling of the fallout from the baby kidnapping thing was very poor, but the business about the Doctor and River hasn't turned out as bad as it could be - despite my not really liking the character, there's something quite touching about River being prepared to spend most of her life in prison for a crime she knows she didn't commit (indeed, a crime that actually hasn't been committed at all).

[Perry Vale]

Thank goodness me & Perry can finally agree on something with this season!

Although I don't believe we've disagreed on everything.

[Awesome Wells]

I don't think that this one needs to be a problem. All it had to do was emit a few waves of yellow light, and if it can already affect its appearance enough to transform itself into physical doubles of anyone, it's not that much of a reach, surely?

Exactly. I'm staggered that anyone has even mentioned this as a fault.

[Perry Vale]

Does the Tesselecta Doctor explain why he spat the wine out in TIA?

[Awesome Wells]

Did the Teselecta slip River a bit of robo-tongue?

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Cheeky tweet from Moff earlier regarding the faux regeneration along the lines of if The Mill can make the Doctor renegerate in 2011 surely the Teselecta from three thousand years in the future can accomplish the same thing.

I've revised my opinion of the Brig scene slightly since last night. On it's own it was a nice little scene (surely the nurse would have referred to him as "Sir Alistair" although I guess if we hadn't had the full title some people would have debated who they were talking about!) I just found the slightly shock impact the first time I saw it took me out of the story for just a moment. I watched the scene it on it's own later and it seemed to actually work better taken out of the context of some of the madder elements of the episode but overall Matt Smith's portrayal of the Doctor's reaction and resulting change of attitude was excellent. I have to admit I was left quite upset afterwards but that's a whole other issue which I shan't discuss any further here.

[Jason Thompson]

Does the Tesselecta Doctor explain why he spat the wine out in TIA?

Because he's pretending to be the Doctor, and the Doctor is running the show inside the Tesselecta. Spitting wine out is something we've seen this Doctor do before, so he had to do it here to maintain the pretense.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Oh so by using his pseudonym from the Big Finish play Sympathy of the Devil I managed to let that little casting spoiler out without spoiling. (Those who are wondering what I'm on about please see the "How's he going to get away with it" thread) That's good to know.
Just checked the end credits of TWoRS and he's going under the name "Rondo Haxton". If you google Rondo Hatton you'll understand the significance.

I don't see how it was a spoiler really. He just played some Viking dude.

[Larry]

Oh, that was a wonderful little moment with the Brig's death. Just a little moment, but it brought a tear to my eye. A beautiful moment...

.

it certainly was there have been a lot of fans upset that Nick, didn't get on screen "in memory of" tribute so it was nice they did it as I guess looking back now once we'd seen the Rebel Flesh and the the robot inhabited by the mini people in this episode t was so obviouse the Doctor who died was going to be a clone or duplicate./ but that certainly dosen't bother me really enjoyed this episode.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

I see the Radio Times didn't join in with the spirit of it and have credited Ganton with Rondo Haxton's real name.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Well again... why not. There's no reason NOT to. It's not like he's Anthony Ainley.

[Larry]

I may be wrong, but wasn't Darren's point that the 'Doctor' gets shot once, then starts to regenerate, then is shot again mid-regen' to make sure he's dead. But how could the Tesselecta machine even start to regenerate?

?

well it wasn't regenerating this is a machine that can take on the appearence of any body it likes so I reckon the Doctor will of told them to make an orangy glow giving the impression it was regenerating.

[egdcltd]

Finally watched this weeks and last weeks episodes today. Got the question right in Let's Kill Hitler, and twigged to the twist at "shape-shifting." Overall, enjoyed it, but still lots of questions unanswered. Which by the looks of things won't be answered until Matt Smith bows out.