Rate and Discuss 6.13: The Wedding of River Song

[FlyingBeastie]

Cringe-inducing, trite, shallow, gimmicky, sloppily executed, gaudy- essentially I can safely say whenever I see "Written by Steven Moffat" that the episode will surely suck.

Again, things weren't explained or skipped. Nothing was plausible- if the Silence wanted to kill The Doctor, why did they let him blab on and on to Winston Churchill in the senate room? could've easily killed him there.

Who's Madame Kevorkian? Just some b*tch who's cruel and ruthless for no other reason that the script calls her to be so. And, oh god, that scene between Amy and her was so shallow. It didn't help that Gillan corpsed the performance, though it was written well. That scene should've been built upon from LKH, but it wasn't, so it just came across like, "Oh, and here's the whole Amy losing her baby thing addressed. Sorted."

Why did they need River in the suit if the suit could move on its own? I could understand if there was a line somewhere where The Doctor felt guilted into dying b/c if he didn't the Silence would've killed River via the suit. But no. There was no clause like that in there.

Why couldn't The Doctor just visit the fat blue guy before he was beheaded? Why is it that the fat blue guy knows the secret and no one else does? Why didn't the Silence just have him literally killed so he would've never told The Doctor the question?

Why does Amy remember everything but Rory? When was the moment where she remembered she and Captain Williams had a baby? Did I miss something?

I'm sorry, but the only saving grace of the whole Doctor/River relationship has been the acting caliber of Smith and Kingston. In "Silence of the Library" there was this undertone that River and The Doctor had this deep connection and this amazing undying love for each other because of all that they had been through...

But now we're actually seeing that it's not. This is River's second time seeing the Doctor and she's already prepared to blow up the universe for him-

W H Y ? ? ?

This sounds like something out of "Twilight" it's so shallow and underdeveloped.

And I dunno why, but everything just came across as ridiculous with the exception of the skulls (once again, the BBC effects department shat on a sequence that could've been awesome when that viking guy fell into the pit) The cars with balloons, the secret base inside a pyramid- it just came across as silly and I felt like I was watching a parody of Who rather than an actual episode of Who.

And how is it that the Silence can't tell the difference between a tessla-coil person thing and a living being? Either The Silence are everywhere and as powerful as Moffat made them out to be at the beginning or they're not. Major, major cock up there.

OH god, and that ending- Doctor Who? I felt at any moment Smith was about to turn around and we'd see the question marks on his lapels. We're in 2011, not the 80's! The whole thing came across like those cheap, sci-fi series you used to see on TV. I cringed. It's no wonder older viewers have been tuning out and younger viewers are tuning in more and more- the show has literally turned into a children's show. Not only that, but it felt very much like the prequels.

I mean, that line where Churchill said (in reagrds to what he would do to a man who held such a grave secret), "Well, I would find him and destroy him."

How more PC- Steven Spielberg- re-imagining- of ET with the FBI agents with the walkie-talkies- can you get THAN THAT???

What, cos Churchill is a "good guy" he can't say kill? Or at least disappear with a wink? That lien really bothered me cos all I kept thinking was, "Destroy how? Like, what, financially? Are you going to ruin his credit?"

Jeez, even that last sequence when River came home had me feel uncomfortable. It was all so forced, and once again Rory is just an appendage in the scene. He didn't even hug River. Christ, you'd wonder if the kid is even his.

Sigh, anyway-


I gave it a 3/10 for three reasons:

1. Smith and Kingston's chemistry, especially during that very "Family Guy"-esque sequence at the lake when she drained her power. I rewinded that part

2. The nod to the Brig.

3. Murray Gold's score.


I'd say it's the second worst finale I've seen. Pandorica/ Big Bang is still the worst.

The Dalek scene. I'm one of those people who feels that they were vastly overused in the RTD years, but I felt that that scene was really rather well done.

He can't use them cos the redesign sucked. Notice that the two times we've seen them since VOTD they're either broken or shot facing the camera. Moff done goofed with the design and now has to pretty much live with them cos they'd be too expensive to scrap. Had the redesign not been so garish, I'd bet they would be appearing much, much more.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Nothing wrong with question marks on lapels.

[Llordllama]

Thought it was a solid 8. Some nice interplays between the characters, nice bits of acting from all three of Matt, Arthur and Karen and it did tie up the season. Lost points as I'm bored beyond belief by the Forget-me-nots of Doom and River Song. But enjoyed it far more than I thought I was going to (that opening shot - wow!).

[Jason Thompson]

Half the problem with this whole season has been the notion of big things that we just haven't seen before. The whole arc is based around a group of people supposedly involved in a 'long, bitter war' against the Doctor. Trouble is we never saw them until the episode they told us they were involved in this 'long, bitter war', so the viewer has no investment in the whole plot. River Song is supposedly in love with the Doctor, but we haven't seen anything of that actually developing, just been told that it is so.

And then what we are given is utter nonsense anyway. The Silence want the Doctor dead so there can never be an answer to the question 'Doctor Who?', but why all that arsing around with Amy and River Song and a spacesuit when they could, you know, just shoot him! This is even more absurd when you consider that their plan for escaping with Melody involved luring him to an asteroid with a whole army on it, and yet none of them actually thought 'maybe we could kill him now'.

At least RTD's stories and arcs usually made some sort of sense. Plot holes there may have been, but here we have more holes than plot.

[SiHart]

River Song is supposedly in love with the Doctor, but we haven't seen anything of that actually developing, just been told that it is so.

It's an age old Moffat problem. I remember complaining about similar things in The Girl in the Fireplace. And Blink.

[Rob McCow]

I agree with everything Flying Beastie says, except the episode was extremely entertaining with some neat twists and brilliant visuals, the resolution to the River Song story was highly satisfying, I adored the bonkers collapsed-time-Earth and it was all rather sophisticated in its way.

[Rob McCow]

when they could, you know, just shoot him!

They did, with the space suit!

A Good Man Goes To War was there to demonstrate that you can't 'just shoot' the Doctor, or at least not easily. If it could be done, in 49 years of adventures, someone would have done it.

Anyway, the Silence seem to be aware that the Doctor's death was supposed to be a fixed point in history, on the shores of Lake Silencio. So they couldn't shoot him. The army on Demon's Run was there to stop the Doctor getting to Melody Pond.

[Perry Vale]

River Song is supposedly in love with the Doctor, but we haven't seen anything of that actually developing, just been told that it is so.

I see the point you're making but don't personally agree with this, that was what LKH was all about to me. Mels is told stories about him all the time she is growing up (from Amy), and you see the moment she falls in love with him just before she saves him. Then you see her choosing the profession of archaelogy just so that she can find and pursue him (to be with him again), and at the end of Closing Time you see she's done just that, following his life and all the stories and accounts she can find out about him.

[Jason Thompson]

They did, with the space suit!

But that's the point. Why the hell was there a spacesuit involved at all? It's a ridiculous idea and is 'justified' by the whole business being a fixed point: a spacesuit has to be involved because history says a spacesuit was involved. Huh?

A Good Man Goes To War was there to demonstrate that you can't 'just shoot' the Doctor, or at least not easily.

Again, though, it just demonstrates how stupid that notion is. He was standing, unarmed, in front of a whole army of people with guns pointed at him, and it would have only taken one person pulling the trigger to actually shoot him.

If it could be done, in 49 years of adventures, someone would have done it.

Given that just shooting someone is really really easy, the fact that it keeps not happening just shows a lack of sensible plotting. I made the same argument in the threads about Daleks in Manhattan and Victory of the Daleks: they want him dead, they have built in guns that point to him whenever they happen to be facing him, and they don't even have to do anything except fire them and they'd actually have done the thing they keep shouting about, but no, they just let him stand there and talk. It was taken to ridiculous extremes with the Vashta Nerada, who apparently didn't use their abilty to swarm all over him and strip his flesh in less than a second because they read about how clever he is.

The only reason 'just shooting' any character should not be easy is because he never lets himself get in a position where he can be just shot, not because no-one has the gumption to actually do it when he's standing unarmed in front of them!

Anyway, the Silence seem to be aware that the Doctor's death was supposed to be a fixed point in history, on the shores of Lake Silencio. So they couldn't shoot him.

That seems to be the implication, but even that is nonsensical. It renders their entire religious order moot, doesn't it? They believe silence must fall if the ultimate question is ever answered, so they are trying to kill the Doctor to prevent it ever being answered, but if they know that his death on the shores of Lake Silencio is a fixed point in time that must occur, then surely they think that the question will never be answered anyway, so what exactly do they actually believe? If they think the Doctor will still be around when the question is asked then they surely don't think they actually killed him on the shores of Lake Silencio, so... huh?

It's just another absurd 'timey-wimey' thing, where things happen just because someone already knows they play out that way, rather than because it would actually make sense for anyone to have come up with such a plan.

[Jason Thompson]

I see the point you're making but don't personally agree with this, that was what LKH was all about to me. Mels is told stories about him all the time she is growing up (from Amy), and you see the moment she falls in love with him just before she saves him. Then you see her choosing the profession of archaelogy just so that she can find and pursue him (to be with him again), and at the end of Closing Time you see she's done just that, following his life and all the stories and accounts she can find out about him.

I just don't find that a convincing 'falling in love' story. An obsession, an infatuation, maybe, but to me it doesn't ring true to fall in love with someone you have only met once, certainly not to the extent of being willing to let the whole universe go up in smoke if he just stays alive with you.

And what stories has Amy told Mels? The seven year old Amy only saw him for a short time, in which he spent more of that time spitting food all over her kitchen than actually doing anything Doctor-y. And surely over those twelve years before he came back those stories would have been less and less complimentary and more about the man who promised to be back in five minutes and never showed up again to prove to her parents and all those psychiatrists that she was not mad? Not exactly the stuff of romance.

[Rob McCow]

Why the hell was there a spacesuit involved at all?

From the look of it, because their plan went a bit awry and River didn't want to kill the Doctor. The spacesuit made sure that she would do it.

then surely they think that the question will never be answered anyway

Obviously not! They seem to think that the 'question' situation is not a fixed point and can be obviated by having the Doctor killed at Lake Silencio.

An obsession, an infatuation, maybe, but to me it doesn't ring true to fall in love with someone you have only met once, certainly not to the extent of being willing to let the whole universe go up in smoke if he just stays alive with you.

But obsessive love is exactly like that. She fell in love with the man during 'Let's Kill Hitler' and became totally infatuated. As has been pointed out, her whole life has been about the Doctor, so when she finally met him she was bound to have some kind of strong emotional reaction. He was already at the core of her life.

[FlyingBeastie]

I just don't find that a convincing 'falling in love' story. An obsession, an infatuation, maybe, but to me it doesn't ring true to fall in love with someone you have only met once, certainly not to the extent of being willing to let the whole universe go up in smoke if he just stays alive with you.

And what stories has Amy told Mels? The seven year old Amy only saw him for a short time, in which he spent more of that time spitting food all over her kitchen than actually doing anything Doctor-y. And surely over those twelve years before he came back those stories would have been less and less complimentary and more about the man who promised to be back in five minutes and never showed up again to prove to her parents and all those psychiatrists that she was not mad? Not exactly the stuff of romance.

Agreed. It also makes Mels/River quite impressionable for a person who comes across as a strong, independent individual who can make up her own mind about something herself.

This whole exploration of River just makes the "Silence in the Library" two-parter that much more shallow. It's really ruining it for me. Before, I could've envisioned what it was that she and The Doctor had and could assume it was something so magical and so deep.

But now, to discover it's this? I really can't say it enough, these past two series really remind me of the prequels cos it begs the question,

"Did the story of River Song really need to be told?"

Frankly, now that we see what it is, I think the answer is a resounding no.

[SiHart]

I said that after Silence in the Library!

[Rob McCow]

It also makes Mels/River quite impressionable for a person who comes across as a strong, independent individual who can make up her own mind about something herself.

She made a good effort not to kill the Doctor at Lake Silencio that nearly destroyed the UNIVERSE - surely that shows some strength of character?

[Perry Vale]

I just don't find that a convincing 'falling in love' story.

Fair enough, but for me, everything is there in the script, on screen, and in the performances (from Touissant-White & Kingston).

And what stories has Amy told Mels? The seven year old Amy only saw him for a short time, in which he spent more of that time spitting food all over her kitchen than actually doing anything Doctor-y.

It's a long time since I've been a seven year old, but I'm pretty sure I'd be more likely to remember him crashing a Time Machine into my garden shed. She still has the Tardis replica model she built twelve years later...

And surely over those twelve years before he came back those stories would have been less and less complimentary and more about the man who promised to be back in five minutes and never showed up again to prove to her parents and all those psychiatrists that she was not mad? Not exactly the stuff of romance.

Obviously not, as Mels is of the belief that this Doctor she hadn't even met could have prevented the Titanic from sinking, or stopped Hitler's rise to power...

[SiHart]

That's the thing about having a hero when you're a kid- you grow up thinking they can do anything.

[Si Hunt]

Exactly. I'm staggered that anyone has even mentioned this as a fault.

I don't see why it's such a stretch. Regeneration has been shown to be an amazing physical transformation - strange artron energy seeps from out of a Time Lord and dissipates into the air. It's supposed to be like nothing else. So how are they supposed to have faked it?

Unfortunately for the audience to be sold the bluff, it had to look authentic. Maybe it would have been better if the Doctor fell onto his face and then was shot in the back? And we didn't see him start to regenerate?

Si.

[Perry Vale]

It's no wonder older viewers have been tuning out and younger viewers are tuning in more and more- the show has literally turned into a children's show.

I'd be very interested to see the evidence for that statement, can you post a link to the news story that shows this please?

[Awesome Wells]

I don't see why it's such a stretch. Regeneration has been shown to be an amazing physical transformation - strange artron energy seeps from out of a Time Lord and dissipates into the air. It's supposed to be like nothing else. So how are they supposed to have faked it?

Maybe the future police had The Parting Of The Ways on tape and snipped a bit from the end, broadcasting it out of the Teselecta's face. Or some other visual effect. If they can build a convincing robot, miniaturise people, etc, duplicating the look of a regeneration must be a piece of piss. They could have recreated the look of artron energy from seeing it in Let's Kill Hitler - or maybe the Doctor put it in their database for them.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Looking at series 6 as a whole I would say that this year if anything Doctor Who took a distinct step away from being a children's show. Within the last five weeks there have been two episodes which have been deemed inappropriate for my nephew to watch. The thing I've enjoyed about the last two weeks though is that thankfully the trend towards more adult story telling has been slightly reversed.

[FlyingBeastie]

She made a good effort not to kill the Doctor at Lake Silencio that nearly destroyed the UNIVERSE - surely that shows some strength of character?

Yes. That's my point- why would she fall in love with him through stories being told as opposed to making up her mind herself.

I'd be very interested to see the evidence for that statement, can you post a link to the news story that shows this please?

RadioTimes did an analysis recently:

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2011-...middle-classes

Looking at series 6 as a whole I would say that this year if anything Doctor Who took a distinct step away from being a children's show. Within the last five weeks there have been two episodes which have been deemed inappropriate for my nephew to watch.

I think the only episode that would be a stretch to allow children to watch was "God Complex" and even then, growing up I watched way worse- "Xena", "Hercules", "Buffy", "Angel", "Terminator 1&2", "Total Recall", I grew up with that.

Again, I haven't done the research (but when I get a chance I'm sure I'll get to it) Moffat's run is pretty bloodless compared to RTD. The only thing Moffat has is "mood", but kills he's certainly way behind compared to what we saw in RTD's run.

[Jason Thompson]

From the look of it, because their plan went a bit awry and River didn't want to kill the Doctor. The spacesuit made sure that she would do it.

But then why did River have to be in it if it could control its own actions and do it whatever she wanted?

Obviously not! They seem to think that the 'question' situation is not a fixed point and can be obviated by having the Doctor killed at Lake Silencio.

But if the Doctor's death is a fixed point then the question being obviated is also a certainty. The whole show hinges on these ideas of 'fixed points', things that have to happen. Unless the Silence knows that the Doctor's 'death' was a cheat at that fixed point, then it makes no sense to have them thinking that the question is something they need to avoid because they already know he'll be killed before he can answer it.

As I said, time says this happens, so it happens. But that removes any sense from the motivation.

[Jason Thompson]

I don't see why it's such a stretch. Regeneration has been shown to be an amazing physical transformation - strange artron energy seeps from out of a Time Lord and dissipates into the air. It's supposed to be like nothing else. So how are they supposed to have faked it?

People have seen regenerations before, and at this point there is an expert in regeneration inside the Tesselecta, so why wouldn't it be easy to fake with a bit of a light show? They only had to make it look like he was starting to regenerate, not the whole process, since it was interrupted.

[Jason Thompson]

Obviously not, as Mels is of the belief that this Doctor she hadn't even met could have prevented the Titanic from sinking, or stopped Hitler's rise to power...

Yes, that's kind of my point though. What's on screen doesn't ring true for me at all. That leads to the notion that River fell in love with the Doctor largely on the back of some made-up stories rather than any real notion of who or what the Doctor is.

[duncan]

Well, I really enjoyed that. I was still expecting the Ganger Doctor to be the one on the beach and have to admit that even when the teselcta we re-introduced, i didn't twig as they were occupying someone else at the time. I loved the tribute to the Brigadier, Amy wasn't quite so annoying but Rory was excellent. I also totally loved Churchill's line about "records? God man, have you never heard of downloads?"

9/10 from me. Much better than last years finale.