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  1. #1
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    Default New York- multiple shootings

    Several people have been shot near the Empire State Building in New York City, the authorities have said.

    The shooter was killed in the incident, which is reported to have taken place near the popular tourist attraction before 09:00 (13:00 GMT).

    It is not clear how many people were wounded or what their conditions were. The shooting occurred at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue.

    The incident does not appear to be terror-related, police said.

    There is a heavy police presence at the scene.
    So is it time the USA tightened up their gun laws? There seems to be more and more of these mass shootings happening

    I've just got my handcuffs and my truncheon and that's enough.

  2. #2
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    How many more incidents will it take before this issue is properly addressed? The UK had tough legislation introduced virtually overnight after the Dunblane incident in '96 but it seems that the Columbine shootings three years later weren't enough to persuade the US Government to tackle this issue.

  3. #3
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    Is now the time for the US to be tightening up its gun laws? Not that tightening up drug laws has stopped people from getting LSD, mark you

    Excuse the "righteous indignation", but this sort of thing seems to have been happening since the Ark set sail in America; yes, something should be done, but the more people say that, the less something is. The stumbling block is of course the 2nd Amendment, and since the country won't be considering too many changes to the bill of rights soon, I'd've thought - well, we've just had it out over the 1st, and we know what should be done over that and whether any deep thought will go into anything to do with that!

  4. #4
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    Statistically, the safest City in the USA is a city here in Georgia called Kennesaw. Kennesaw is particularly interesting in that it is legally required that every household owns a gun. The result is a massive deterrent to gun crime. An increase in gun control laws would merely force the purchase and sale of weapons onto the black market.

    I realise that I sound like a raving member of the NRA (I'm not!), but Americans have a constitutional right to bear arms. The gun lobby here is so big. Any leader who tries to restrict gun ownership could face a revolution.

    As for me... I don't own any guns. I do enjoy occasionally going shooting on a range, though.

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  5. #5
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    When I was in the US last year i found the whole attitude to guns really disturbing. Especially so the gun ranges where you could head off and shoot a few rounds at any age. I was really disturbed by the sight of parents taking their kids off to learn how to shoot a gun, and then coming out and having photos taken with the bullet ridden targets. I've really felt such a violent negative reaction to anything as I did that day- it just seemed so vile and glorified to me, and I couldn't do it.

    I don't think I could ever fire a gun.

    I've just got my handcuffs and my truncheon and that's enough.

  6. #6
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    According to the Radio it was just 2 people shot, outside the Empire State Building. 1 Victim & the gunman was then shot by the police.

    Having visited my relatives in the U.S I don't mind them 'bearing arms' as their constitutional right, but I object that this right is being twisted so the few can go overboard & own several dozen automatic weapons.
    I've always believed that the Law, in conjunction with the constitution, could outlaw automatic weapons & limit the arms you are allowed to bear to just single shot weapons, Like shotguns, revolvers & rifles.

    This would be inline with the true spirit of the constitution as it was written before such automatic weapons were ever invented.

  7. #7
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    Certainly in the State of Georgia, fully automatic weapons are illegal for public ownership. Of course, there are undoubtedly people who own such weapons illegally! I can't talk for other States, though.

    So sad that to hear the news of another shooting, though

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  8. #8
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    In school we were taught that the difference between the US and most if not every other country is that in every other country, the government tells the people what their rights are. In the US, the people tell the government what its rights are. By that token, the Bill of Rights(the first Ten Amendments) is not a list of Constitutional Rights that the Government can give or take away, but rather it is a list of INALIENABLE human rights that the Government can not take away, ever. At least in theory. To that effect, arms cannot be taken away, but the types of arms can be restricted. Automatic firearms are not legal anywhere that I know of, and of course explosives are outlawed.

    Another common mistake is the idea that in the original spirit of the constitution, guns wouldn't be needed today, as they were were for protecting yourself from criminals and now we have a police force for that. In actuality, the true spirit behind the right to bear arms is that the citizens of the country should be sufficiently armed in order to overthrow the government, should it become corrupt. In fact, the founding fathers would likely be absolutely appalled by the strength of the federal government today. Their idea was that the individual state governments would each run independently of each other and the Federal Government would have about as much power as I imagine EU does currently (my knowledge of the EU is very limited and may not be accurate).

    Also, as has been touched upon, there are currently a LOT of guns already in the US. Making people turn their guns in (as if you could) would only mean that all the innocent people were unarmed and the criminals armed. I believe the fact that we are bordered with Mexico means that even if you could get rid of all the guns that are here now, the criminals would still be able to smuggle in weapons as easily as drugs are currently smuggled in, and again, you would have a nation where the criminals are armed and the civilians are not.

    I personally think that this common belief that the Founding Fathers were all omniscient saints and geniuses and that all of their beliefs should be sacrosanct is a bad idea. We live in a different world than they did and while their beliefs may form a good basis, but I don't care for when people bring them up in politics and say 'this is what the Founding Fathers would have wanted'.

    It's often strange for me to read facebook as I have a mix of friends both European and American, Liberal and conservative. A lot of the Europeans who have the sentiment that I have seen here.. the 'surely they'll change their laws now/see the error of their ways' sort of things... you would be absolutely amazed at how these things have the opposite effect on a lot of people. In fact I think gun sales went way up after the Dark Knight shootings and a lot of people were crying for looser gun laws, with the idea being that these shootings would never happen if everyone was walking around with unconcealed weapons. I know one guy who personally went on a rant saying that if there were armed people in that theater they could have shot that guy to death before he had done nearly the damage he had.

    Personally, if there was a way to make the US more like the UK regarding guns I would be all for it. I just don't think there is a way to do it.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    In school we were taught that the difference between the US and most if not every other country is that in every other country, the government tells the people what their rights are. In the US, the people tell the government what its rights are.
    Without wishing to be offensive, isn't that just horsesh*t though? I don't know how so many Americans can believe so strongly in this "Land of Liberty" idea when one glance at some other world democracies should be enough to tell them they're probably not even in the top 10.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zbigniev Hamson View Post
    Without wishing to be offensive, isn't that just horsesh*t though? I don't know how so many Americans can believe so strongly in this "Land of Liberty" idea when one glance at some other world democracies should be enough to tell them they're probably not even in the top 10.
    There are certainly countries that are more liberal than the US, especially as regards nudity and sex, drugs, and prostitution (technically speaking, prostitution is legal in Las Vegas, NV though). Do they have ALL of the same liberties though, and more importantly perhaps to this argument: are their governments formed on the philosophical principles of the People granting the Government it's powers?

    While it may be more philosophical than practical, the fact is that the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were both written with this idea in mind. The Declaration of Independence states We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. while the US Constitution opens with "We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." and goes on to list the powers the people allow the Government to have.

    So, no, I don't think it is 'horseshit' though I will readily give that practically, rather than philosophically speaking, many other democracies have for all intents and purposes the same freedoms and liberties that we have as far as daily life.

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