Rate and Discuss: Asylum of the Daleks

[Nyder]

Maybe the reason we saw more 2005 bronze daleks than others is because they're easier to operate (as stated in this month's DWM). Apparently the Paradigm Daleks are a bugger to operate, and you can't see out of them properly!

I loved Asylum! So pleased with Jenna's performance. It was strong & quirky. Is it too soon to watch the episode again? Ok I'll leave it till tmw then ;-)

[Simon R]

I liked her performance but the character is just River all over again. Hopefully the companion will be a bit less all knowing and self-aware.

[Jason Thompson]

Overall I wasn't overly impressed. Found myself clock-watching at one point. Surprised to see the actress playing the new companion so early on in the series. Is she going to be the same character earlier in time? Been done. A relative? A strange genetic anomaly that throws up one of her every generation? Who knows. Going to be interesting finding out. I hope.

The regulars were as good as ever, and Coleman makes a promising debut. The twist at the end I did not see coming, and it was excellent, although those chains seemed to be decorative rather than anything else. The revelation also made the first scene with her boarding up the doors and the Daleks screaming they would enter rather more metaphysical than it first appeared. I also liked the apparently trivial and irrelevant question about the milk turning out to be really rather important after all.

The scenes with Rory in the room full of apparently dead Daleks were nicely shot and quite suspenseful. Of course we knew they would be coming back to life at some point, and the Dalek slowly swinging its eye back after Rory pushed it aside was suitably 'uh-oh...' I thought.

"Perhaps that is why we have never been able to kill you."


Oh, the Daleks! Again they want the Doctor to do something for them. (Notably, they seem to be good at getting this incarnation of the Doctor to do just what they want, as on both occasions they have been major antagonists they have had a plan that involved him and it has worked without any losses but those intended from the start: the 'old' Daleks in Victory, the insane Daleks here.) But they've been desperately trying to kill him for heaven knows how long. This time they want him and they get him. Easily. Which kind of makes a mockery of all the other times when they have actually wanted to kill him. If they can pluck his companions out of time and space and lure him all the way to Skaro when they need him to do them a favour, how could they not kill him when they wanted to? The whole 'divine hatred' business sounds to me like a desperate fishing by the author to explain this massive problem with their ability to just SHOOT HIM when he's standing right in front of them.

And now they have their insane Daleks to deal with. Only they seem to be a pretty sluggish lot, a long way from the mad, insane, unpredictable lot that supposedly scare the fully sane Daleks out of their wits enough to try using the Doctor against them. And why would they be so scared they refuse to even send drones. You know, the foot soldiers that make up the front line of any of their invasions and that are expected to be the 'projected causalties' of any camapign? They've never shown any qualms about sending Daleks to certain death or killing their own before. Daleks can pretend to be pacifist servants and world war two army inventions, but they can't manage to blend in among a crowd of other Daleks long enough to switch off the forcefield? And why can the forcefield only be deactivated from inside, where all the insane Daleks are?

And it's been mentioned before, but 'every Dalek ever'? The one 'spoiler' I could not avoid, being a DWM subscriber, and it turned out to be untrue hype. The old Daleks were in the background, and never shown with any emphasis. Even when they specifically listed his previous encounters and showed a room full of survivors, they were all new series Daleks. And speaking of new series Daleks, the production crew aren't backtracking after finding out how unpopular the redesign from 2010 was, are they? No, surely not, with their filling this episode with bronze Daleks and relegating the new ones to one major speaking part and a few background soldiers. Or are they ministers, since it was the parliament? It's like this whole episode was one massive 'whoops, we're sorry we screwed them up, here are the good ones back again to make everything better'.

I wasn't overly convinced by the Amy Rory split business either. I thought the actors did a brilliant job with the material, and I loved the Doctor not telling them he'd slipped his bracelet onto Amy's wrist because he knew Rory would try to save her and that would be the catalyst for getting them back together. Obviously I have never been in a similar situation to theirs, but Amy spent the entire episode being angry with Rory, saying she doesn't have a husband, and he said she kicked him out, and then at the end she said she 'gave him up' because she can't give him what he wants: children. Are we supposed to feel sorry for her now because her throwing him out of their home was a sacrifice for her and she was trying to let him have what she thought he wanted? As I said, I've never been in a situation that remotely resembles that, but it seems that 'giving him up' should involve her leaving him, not booting him out and keeping the nice house and everything else.

So a concept that sounded better than its execution, with some terribly inaccurate hype, even from the officially licensed magazine, and some plot holes you could drive a fleet of Dalek saucers through. Not a bad opener for the season, but not one of the best I feel. 6/10.

[MinaHarker]

That's a hell of a lot of assumptions you have made about Rory and Amy's relationship there, Jason.

[Jason Thompson]

Perhaps so. I suppose it was more a case of them somehow not being able to discuss the issue properly and it escalating out of control before either side could properly understand it. It's certainly clear that Rory had no idea that her inability to have children was the issue, and that she never managed to get to the point of allowing him to decide if he still wanted to be with her despite her inability to give him the children she thought he wanted.

But it seems there's no substitute for being whisked off in time and space for a life and death adventure with a Time Lord and the most feared race in the universe to get married couples in crisis to reconcile. Even if it might only be because the person holding the signed divorce papers lost them when he was whisked away to a spaceship on the other side of the universe...

[Andrew Curnow]

And speaking of new series Daleks, the production crew aren't backtracking after finding out how unpopular the redesign from 2010 was, are they? No, surely not, with their filling this episode with bronze Daleks and relegating the new ones to one major speaking part and a few background soldiers. Or are they ministers, since it was the parliament? It's like this whole episode was one massive 'whoops, we're sorry we screwed them up, here are the good ones back again to make everything better'.

It seems to me quite obvious what's happened. The new Dalek Paradigm has gone back to Skaro, but it's turned out that the mysterious yellow 'Eternal' was actually the dull yellow 'Accountant' and he's pointed out how much more expensive these swanky new casings are to produce, and how it would be much more cost-effective to rebuild the Dalek race using the old, cheaper design, for which they've got a load of parts already lying around. "Never mind Victory" he points out, waving his sucker in the direction of the power point presentation of the last fiscal year's results, "We need to be aware of the Profit and Loss of the Daleks..."

Then of course, the Prime Minister Dalek has said he wants to see a vast arena full of Daleks, whereupon the Graham Williams Dalek has sunk his eye into his plunger in despair, grating "It's the Killer Cats of Ging-Sengh all over again..."

[Si Hunt]

I think the Prime Minister Dalek has spent all the Dalek Budget on an enormous sporting event, leaving no money at all for conquest of the Universe.

Si.

[Utermazan]

Despite everyone saying that it was amazing, It did have some flaws.

The "every Dalek ever" gimmick was a bit underplayed, I think I only saw the special weapons Dalek in the back of one shot.

It took a while to get going as well. I think they spent far too long up on the Dalek spaceship being told what the story was going to be about.

The way in which Amy and Rory suddenly got back together against the odds was a little unexpected to say the least.

However, it's not all doom and gloom. The acting was great, and the twist with Oswin was really good (although I'm hoping we don't get given another River Song plot line).

Zombie-Dalek people should definitely get a return at some point.

In summary, I though that it was over-hyped, and didn't really make the best use of the Daleks ( I mean there was a whole lot of them, but most just stood there gurgling), but it still managed to set in motion some interesting possible plot points.

I think it was more of a setting up episode than a full out Dalek story.

Anyway, those are just my opinions.

[J.R. Southall]

I think it was more of a setting up episode than a full out Dalek story.

Like Victory then. (And yes, I agree.)

So, when are we going to get a "proper" Dalek story...?

[Andrew Curnow]

I liked the fact that they didn't even bother mentioning that the Daleks are now back, rather than being the last of the last ever, ever, ever Daleks left in the universe ever - Victory set up enough of a comeback for it to make sense, but I'm glad they didn't then feel the need to explain that last night with a "How are there so many of them now, Doctor?" spiel.

[Jon Masters]

Glad lots of other people enjoyed it, but after mulling it over I'd probably drop my score lower.

I don't want to spend a long time moaning but I went quite quickly from to to , but this morning am more at what the Moff thinks he can justify in doing to DW. More like this and I can't envision me enjoying DW much again until he goes ( and I shudder now to think what he might do for the 50th anniversary).

3 quick points

• hate the 'new' title sequence
• the slide from 'story' into 'spectacle' is now complete; it had more plot holes than DIM/EotD (and that takes some achieving)
• a crumb of comfort in what a great Cyberman story it would have made (and if anyone else had written it I would have assumed that was how it had started out

If anyone wants a brilliant example on how to use the Daleks in a new way, I'd insist they listen to Next Universal asap

[Larry]

Fun episode, took a little while to get going but we both enjoyed it - I'll echo the comments above that the fanboy in me was hoping to see more olde Daleks (I think I spotted a Genesis-type one in the first long shot of Rory in the Asylum, and the Special Weapons one as well); also not expecting to see the new girl - in fact I wasn't really sure it was her until the credits; we both laughed at the 'Ponds kissing' scene with the Doctor; and I liked the scene with the guy taking the Doctor & Amy back to his ship, and being surprised to find everyone was dead. It reminded me of Kryten aboard the Nova 5 ("They're dead? Are you quite sure?")

A thumbs up!!

watched it again this morning an the scene where the Doctor tells Amy that the people she saw were Daleks there is a Hartnell/Troughton era Dalek with the light blue bumps in the background.

[Larry]

00 quick points

• hate the 'new' title sequence

having seen them again this morning the new title sequence does seem a bit too cartoony and it's not helped by the lightweight credit font.

[Utermazan]

3 quick points

• hate the 'new' title sequence
• the slide from 'story' into 'spectacle' is now complete; it had more plot holes than DIM/EotD (and that takes some achieving)
• a crumb of comfort in what a great Cyberman story it would have made (and if anyone else had written it I would have assumed that was how it had started out

The new title sequence did look bad, in my opinion the Ecclestone/Tennant titles were the best.

Completely agree about how it was more spectacle than a properly thougt out story.

It would have been great with the Cybermen. To be honest it could of worked with any enemy, the Daleks were surplass to the plot. Asylum of the Yeti would have been much cooler

[Perry Vale]

Initial thoughts on first viewing....

Hurrah! The Matt, Karen and Arthur show is back!

Boo! Amy and Rory are just there to stitch together a confusing and unconvincing (lack of) plot.

There was technobabble galore, aside from the obvious questions such as why the Daleks, who had recently been wiped out of existence by the Time War etc., suddenly have a planet filled with 'sick' ones.

I felt it was Moffat's weakest script since Silence In The Library (which is recycled from with the hacker girl), and didn't have the same 'feel' of the last two series. Is Moffat going to move away from the fairytale atmosphere. I sensed not so much a change of direction, but perhaps a lack of. The whole thing felt as if it were an overdrawn plot device to get to the 'Doctor Who?' moment at the end.

Still, saved by the leads once again, and for me, the beautiful 'bow tie' moment. Some great dialogue here and there, and yet another beautifully directed piece.

So, a let down in many ways (especially after the previous two season openers), but nothing to make me panic just yet. I'll give it another watch before marking it, but am hovering around an 8/10 for now.

Can we have Mark Gatiss write all future Dalek stories please!

[SiHart]

Jon's point about this being a good Cybermen story is a very valid one. Since when have the Daleks actively sought humans for conversion? That would have worked far better for the Cybermen and finally, finally done a story about the horrors of conversion. Thinking about it, the subtraction of Love from the human personality would have worked well too. Hey ho!

That said, I enjoyed the episode a great deal. I probably need to rewatch it as I watched it late last night, and was tired and slightly drunk (!) at the time.

What I liked- the surprise inclusion of Oswin. I was looking at her, thinking, she looks familiar and then it twigged. That was a nice surprise and I did enjoy the dynamic between her and the Doctor. She was very nicely played by JLC.

Rory, once again, was the better of the two of the Williams's. I liked the slow, atmospheric scenes of him creeping around the asylum where excellently done. Rory always feels real in a way that Amy doesn't quite somehow. I did also enjoy the scenes with Rory and Amy together at the teleport at the end- nicely done.

But yes, I too was disappointed not to see more of the older Daleks- they could have been used as effectively as the Bronze ones were- and should have been too. It felt like a wasted opportunity to me. Still it was nice to hear some Dalek sound effects from Destiny, which was nice on its 33rd anniversary.

New title sequence just felt liek they'd put the last one through a filter and made it look cheaper. The logo is better without the DW in the middle though, but the new font looks cheap.

[Anthony Williams]

Some very, very brief thoughts about this before I head back to Dragon*Con for the day...

Firstly - I liked Jenna, but felt that the character was written for by Steven Moffat poorly. I don't get those who praise him for writing "excellent women". They are all the same - Amy, River, Reinette, Oswin... essentially the same character. It'll be interesting to see whether or not she's playing Oswin when she becomes the companion full time.

The Daleks. Pretty good. Old Daleks underused, unfortunately.

Finally - Rory giving up his bracelet thingy to save Amy. Made no sense. How did they know it would work? She was already being converted by the nano-bots, and there was precisely zero evidence that it would reverse those effects. Rory certainly didn't know whether it would reverse things or not, and could've just resulted in both of them becoming the Dalek-Android things. Notable plot hole there.

But, beyond that, I thought it was better than most of what we got last year. Much, much better. With the possible exception of The Doctor's Wife.

Anyway, off to the convention now. Woo!

[SiHart]

Finally - Rory giving up his bracelet thingy to save Amy. Made no sense. How did they know it would work? She was already being converted by the nano-bots, and there was precisely zero evidence that it would reverse those effects. Rory certainly didn't know whether it would reverse things or not, and could've just resulted in both of them becoming the Dalek-Android things. Notable plot hole there.

Surely it was more about the gesture- that Rory would do anything to save Amy, not about whether it would actually work.

[Andrew Curnow]

I agree - no, he couldn't be sure, but there's certainly a logic to it that it could very well at least slow down Amy's changing.

Although I wouldn't for one minute claim it as the best Who story ever, not even the best Dalek season opener in fact, but... were there really that many plot holes flying around? Off the top of my head, I'm not sure how a spaceship can crash through the planet's forcefield but the Dalek missiles couldn't, but I can't really think of any huge obvious issues other than that.

[Si Hunt]

How about-

If Oswin's world inside her spaceship was a dream, how could she transmit her music so the Doctor could hear it on Skaro?

Si.

[Nyder]

Re the title sequence - it's like it's being viewed through Amy's eyes just before she saw those people who were really Daleks.

So next week we all need to be wearing anti-nano cloud bracelets to ensure the title sequence is sharp & as crisp as can be!

[Andrew Curnow]

If Oswin's world inside her spaceship was a dream, how could she transmit her music so the Doctor could hear it on Skaro?

But wasn't she 'hooked in' to the Dalek's 'interweb' (or whatever they called it) - in which case, I'd definitely expect him to hear it on Skaro. Presumably transmitted right onto the Dalek's main wavelengths? (It would have been odd if he'd picked it up in the TARDIS, but he didn't!)

[Nyder]

How about-

If Oswin's world inside her spaceship was a dream, how could she transmit her music so the Doctor could hear it on Skaro?

Si.

Also, how come everyone heard a girl's voice being transmitted ("Souffle GIRL") and not a Dalek voice?

[Jon Masters]

Off the top of my head, I'm not sure how a spaceship can crash through the planet's forcefield but the Dalek missiles couldn't, but I can't really think of any huge obvious issues other than that.

That's a biggie, or even how the "gravity beam" ( science ) could get Doctor and co through it but not, say, a big bomb ?

Off the top of my head other ones would be

• as Jason said, why not just send Dalek puppets down to solve your problem ?
• how do the Daleks deliver new insane Daleks to the asylum ?
• why have a forcefield that only switches off from the planet, and who would normally turn it on and off if all the Daleks are insane ?
• why do the Daleks need a parliament when they are clearly an empire run by an Emperor ? And who votes them in ?
• how do nanobots create eyestalks and exterminators out of organic tissue, and why bother ?
• why have a system that traps newly created Daleks (from visitors) in the asylum ?
• If all the Daleks in the asylum are armed, who disarmed the ones in the Intensive Care unit ?
• why, in VOTD, did the New Paradigm wipe out the old Daleks for being impure but now are happily chummy with them (did Remembrance of the Daleks never happen) ?
• What happened to all the computer records of the Doctor (like the Daleks use in the Classic Series) ?
• Why do Daleks talk to each other if they're linked to a telepathic network ?
• What's Skaro doing there ? (maybe the Moff never saw Remembrance)
• Why use spies who, when they want to do evil Dalek work give themselves away by having a huge eyestalk pop out of their head, when you've got Robomen or Replicants ?
• who made the decision to do a full conversion job on Oswin ?

Trust me - I know someone will probably come up with answers to these, but the more you think about it the more problems you find.... <Marvin>

ETA: Like what Si and Dave have done

[Si Hunt]

But wasn't she 'hooked in' to the Dalek's 'interweb' (or whatever they called it) - in which case, I'd definitely expect him to hear it on Skaro. Presumably transmitted right onto the Dalek's main wavelengths? (It would have been odd if he'd picked it up in the TARDIS, but he didn't!)

But the real question is, where did the music come from? If she didn't have a real CD player/grammophone player etc. inside the Dalek, if it was just a dreaming mind, how did she create the music in the first place? Are we supposed to think a Dalek can turn something in its memory or thoughts into a real sound and transmit it?

Si.