Rate and Discuss: Asylum of the Daleks

[Simon R]

Also how come one minute there's a big floor lift in the middle of the Dalek Parliament chamber that brings Doctor Who and The Ponds up from below and then a few minutes later it's just a hatch with nothing but space and the asylum planet below it. What happened to the lower decks of the spaceship?

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm really not doing a blind 'it's Doctor Who so it must be good' defence job, but I seem to recall them twice at least referring to the planet as being (supposedly) fully-automated - so presumably that would at least explain points 2 & 3.

As regards number 4, I notice that the 'main talking Dalek boss' was explicitly referred to as the Prime Minister rather than Emperor - I'm not disputing that possibly opens up a whole other can of worms, but surely isn't a plot hole? At worst it's a reimagining of the Daleks, at best it's simply that the Paradigm guys do things differently (and arguably, if they started this new race from 5 Daleks, you might expect things to be different, rather than a single Emperor)?

We know, of course, that the answer to numbers 5 & 12 is because 'it looks good on screen' - but again, that's no more a plot hole than 'why do the Daleks sound different in Day of the Daleks' or 'why does Davros' chair look different between Destiny and Resurrection'?

Skaro, I guess, is down to the old timecrack business (at least I hope so - I'd hate to think we're suddenly going to have to take War of the Daleks as gospel).

The last one presumably would be down to the nanogenes...

...however, I would say that probably a bigger question might be 'why have nanogenes that turn all organic matter into Daleks on a supposedly impregnable world of mad Daleks'?

I think, actually, it may come down to what we all plot holes - I'd say there are in most Who stories things that aren't explicitly explained, but generally allow of explanation within the context of the story; whereas a genuine plot hole might be (and I'm now slightly struggling to think of a good example...) if the Daleks in the original story had suddenly come out of their city in episode 6, after all the business about static electricity earlier on. Unless there was an explanation reeled off, that would be a plot hole.

That's just my definition, BTW, feel free to disagree!

[Jon Masters]

As I said, it's not difficult to try to come up with reasons - maybe I'm lacking in patience in my old age to bother, when clearly the writing team haven't bothered.

As regards number 4, I notice that the 'main talking Dalek boss' was explicitly referred to as the Prime Minister rather than Emperor - I'm not disputing that possibly opens up a whole other can of worms, but surely isn't a plot hole? At worst it's a reimagining of the Daleks, at best it's simply that the Paradigm guys do things differently (and arguably, if they started this new race from 5 Daleks, you might expect things to be different, rather than a single Emperor)?

Except the Doctor clearly knows what it is, suggesting its not something new or he's spent the last 6 months reading up on the history of the Daleks post Paradigm (available on Tele-Kindle probably).

The point about the eyestalks was that the 'puppets' can clearly see through their normal eyes, so why bother ?

(I'm still angling for that job as 'miserable-git-plot hole spotter' that I offered myself up for last series - still no phone call from Cardiff )

[Jason Thompson]

Initial thoughts on first viewing....
the obvious questions such as why the Daleks, who had recently been wiped out of existence by the Time War etc., suddenly have a planet filled with 'sick' ones.

I don't think the Daleks were wiped out of existence entirely, as in erased from all of history everywhere, were they? Captain Jack knew what they were and said they had disappeared, the Doctor saying they 'went off to fight a bigger war'. That suggests all the active Daleks went to the war and got destroyed or locked away in the time lock. The ones on the asylum planet would have presuambly been left behind.

This of course assumes the Time War actually happened in the new, rebooted Universe, of course...

[Jason Thompson]

Are we supposed to think a Dalek can turn something in its memory or thoughts into a real sound and transmit it?

Since a Dalek mutant clearly lacks normal speech apparatus, it has been suggested that they speak by thinking the words and converting those thoughts into sound and transmitting them using the hardware inside the casing. We've never heard a Dalek talk outside its machine, have we? They just sort of squeak and splodge around when they're not attached to a machine.

This is admittedly only a 'fan theory' and has never been explicitly stated on screen as far as I know, but it does seem to fit. And it would allow Oswin to be transmitting her human voice and music, if they were that prominent in her mind.

[J.R. Southall]

What I said at Starburst Magazine...

[Darren]

8 out of 10

SM forego his recent tendancy of putting out stories full of "I'm so clever and stylish I don't need a decent, rewarding script", and gave a relentlessly fast paced adventure packed to the seams with ideas and snappy dialogue. The idea of the Daleks forced to ask their arch enemy for help was different. The opening scene with the human/dalek hybrid was genuinely unsettling when the stalk emerged from her forehead and the skeletal hybrid remains were very macabre. Amy and Rory were well written and their scene together managed to be genuine without the wishy washy "oh poor us" emotional stuff they've had before.
The big surprise was casting Jenna Louise- Colman (are they doing a Martha?). She was however intensely irritating throughout.

I'm also unclear about the human/dalek conversion process. It wasn't discussed at the end. I assume Amy and the Doctor were alright and the effects won't continue to show themselves?

All in all, a strong start to Series 7.

[Si Hunt]

We've never heard a Dalek talk outside its machine, have we? They just sort of squeak and splodge around when they're not attached to a machine.

Ironically, not until... this story, when the Dalek Prime Minister was the first mutant we saw without any kind of Dalek around him. Even the Emperor in "Parting of the Ways" had what looked like a giant Dalek around him.

Deciding to "convert" Oswin into a Dalek was a slightly odd thing for the Daleks to do. Particularly as recently a lot has been made of their racial cleansing attitude - in "Parting" we were told that Daleks had to be pure and in "Victory" the old Daleks were destroyed because they wern't pure Dalek. So:

Why didn't the Daleks just destroy Oswin because she wasn't Dalek? Let alone turning her into a Dalek! Why wasn't she the ultimate impure Dalek?
Come to think of it, if Daleks don't like destroying themselves (hence the Asylum) why did the Paradigm Daleks destroy the old ones in "Victory"? And why did all those other Daleks (e.g "Planet of the Daleks" and others) destroy each other?
And why didn't the Paradigm Daleks here, destroy the gold Daleks, as they did in "Victory"? Have they learned to live with them now?

Si.

[Jon Masters]

Deciding to "convert" Oswin into a Dalek was a slightly odd thing for the Daleks to do. Particularly as recently a lot has been made of their racial cleansing attitude - in "Parting" we were told that Daleks had to be pure and in "Victory" the old Daleks were destroyed because they wern't pure Dalek. So:

Why didn't the Daleks just destroy Oswin because she wasn't Dalek? Let alone turning her into a Dalek! Why wasn't she the ultimate impure Dalek?
Come to think of it, if Daleks don't like destroying themselves (hence the Asylum) why did the Paradigm Daleks destroy the old ones in "Victory"? And why did all those other Daleks (e.g "Planet of the Daleks" and others) destroy each other?
And why didn't the Paradigm Daleks here, destroy the gold Daleks, as they did in "Victory"? Have they learned to live with them now?

Si.

It's as I said earlier - its because it's supposed to be a Cyberman story

[Llordllama]

I rather enjoyed it, far more than I did the Impossible Astronaut last year frankly. The Wife seemed to enjoy it too (bit of a shock there), and while I was a bit disappointed there wasn't more classic Daleks in action it did pretty much what it said on the tin. If all the eps in this half season can be done and dusted in one and deliver in similar quality, I'll be one happy llama!

As usual I'll let Doctor WHeasel's video review speak more for me on the subject!

[Perry Vale]

And why didn't the Paradigm Daleks here, destroy the gold Daleks, as they did in "Victory"? Have they learned to live with them now?

That's easy to answer, the gold Daleks here are new ones created by the new Paradigm, that are pure Dalek. They didn't destroy them in VotD just because they were gold coloured.

Anyway, too many spoilers in these threads I fear, I'm off. Enjoy the rest of the series all!

[FlyingBeastie]

Howdy all again.

Moment I saw all the z-movie style posters and, well, listening to Moffatt run his big mouth about how *clever* everything was going to get this season, I really wasn't all too thrilled about the new series (I also stopped at around episode 3 of Pond Life because it was getting all too sad). We put off watching the episode to today, actually.

Anywho, I'm quite surprised (and happily so) to say I quite genuinely enjoyed the episode. I believe folks have already been bringing up some of the more technical issues of the episode (Skaro not being all supernova'd, the weird forcefield that allows things in but not out much like that random missile that destroyed the forcefield in Phantom Menace, etc.) but barring those wee problems, the rest of the episode is really solid.

For one, the production values. Second, the direction. Third, the dialogue. Also, the acting was really great– I'm *so* happy we finally got to see that moment between Amy and Rory. It should've happened last season, but I'm just happy Moffatt is at least addressing it before we see the Ponds go and that he knew they gravely mistepped with the characters last time around. I also *really* like Coleman. I'm not sure how they'll figure her in at Christmas, but I absolutely loved Oswin and was really moved by the ending.

Really liked the dark take with the corpsified Dalek zombies, the weird Amy hallucination, the retro Daleks (THANK GOD). The whole sort of "Dalek Parliament" was naff, though. I mean, given their temperment I don't see Daleks digging the whole "bureaucratic" approach to governance, y'know?

I liked the color change to the credits and the way the cast names showed up, but what's with the title? And the title of the episode was *barely* legible. They need a new typography/graphics person stat.

There's really not much else I can say about it, except to nitpick that they've made Rory too stylish (does he still work as a nurse?) Also the fact that this is now the second time Moffatt is addressing the whole "Let's make everyone forget who The Doctor is"... again. I know they address the whole "Dead Doctor" issue at the start of this episode, but what I'm saying is that this thread is redundant. Also, wasn't Moffatt one of the talking heads in the DVD's criticizing how it was *so* cheesy the way JNT had it as "Doctor Who" as if that was his name? Like it was some terrible gimmick? ::Introduces Moffatt to kettle::

I put down 8, but it's really more of an 8.5 from me, Asylum.

Not quite sure about the next episode, though...

[MacNimon]

As I said, it's not difficult to try to come up with reasons - maybe I'm lacking in patience in my old age to bother, when clearly the writing team haven't bothered.

That's exactly how I feel, Jon, but it's possibly not quite that they 'haven't bothered'....I'd say it more that it's rushed, trying to cram too much into a single episode. Obviously not everything can fit into a single episode, and certain things don't make the cut! It would have worked better as a two-parter, allowing the characters room to breathe and setting the story up at a better pace rather than just rushing into it. Fleshing it out a bit with more supporting characters for the Daleks to bump off, a comment at the end regarding Amy being cured (or is she?!) etc. My big problems with the story were how the spaceship could crash through a supposedly impenetrable forcefield (also the Dalek gravity beams) and did they even bother getting the Doctor involved with their scheme in the first place? Even the expansion of the story to two episodes wouldn't have avoided these flaws in the story.

Also how come one minute there's a big floor lift in the middle of the Dalek Parliament chamber that brings Doctor Who and The Ponds up from below and then a few minutes later it's just a hatch with nothing but space and the asylum planet below it. What happened to the lower decks of the spaceship?

See Andrew's comments above about his definition of a plot hole...I'd say this fits that defintion perfectly!

Overall though, despite the episode's flaws I was surprised just how much I enjoyed this episode. It was more enjoyable than anything I saw in the entire last season, even if it was a bit lightweight. Great fun, although it drops a point or two simply because there are so many points you can pick fault with. I think, on balance, 7/10 is about right for this one.

[Si Hunt]

Maybe they should put extended episodes on the DVD's, to put some of the deleted scenes back in?

Si.

[Alex Me]

A brilliant return to form 8/10.


A great season opener.

The main story is nice and standalone.Though are a few intriguing plot points that I assume will get resolved in the future, such as JENNA .

The main plot point was predictable (I figured it out during the first 'milk' line). But I don't think that was a problem. Twists can only surprise you once (Unless you have a very poor memory!) so a story needs to work even if you know where it is going, and Asylum certainly pulled that off.

The one fault I did find with it was the Rory and Amy sub plot. It was a big improvement from how they were written last year. But, I still felt it made Amy seem unitentially unpleasant, surely she could at least talked to Rory before throwing him out. Though I suspect later episodes may come back to this story so Ill save final judgment till the Pond story reaches it's end.

Oh and it's a shame we did not get to see the special weapon dalek do much Maybee he'll return for a more important role at Christmas!

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

I'm refusing to give a score until I've had a chance to watch it again on my TV at home as I was watching it on a very small TV so the very dark scenes in the Asylum where all the different types of Dalek could barely be made out where even darker and harder to make out for me.

Was just going to post a comment about Oswin but I think I'll save it for the spoiler/speculation thread as it has more to do with how they will bring JLC back.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

On the subject of deleted scenes, you may want to take a look at this
(not quite sure why it seems to have been buried but officially it's only been released on itunes):

[SiHart]

It was a USA exclusive promo thingy apparently.

And it should be Prologue not prequel. Grrr!

[Jon Masters]

It was a USA exclusive promo thingy apparently.

Why does that not surprise me ? About 900% better than Pond Life !

One day the British fans might be appreciated...one day......

[Dirk Gently]

I'm going to slip on my feeble Doctor Who anorak for a moment (those who've met me know my Doctor Who anorak is limited to loving the programme and not much more ) & make a comment. Plot holes aside I liked this story. 8/10 would be my score, there were faults/plot holes yes, but 1 thing really bothered me.
IIRC all the Daleks that "landed" on Exxilon were destroyed either on Exxilon or in the ship that Galloway destroyed. So who was the survivor from Exxilon in the Infirmary?

[Si Hunt]

Maybe that one that self-destructed himself crawled from his casing and hailed down a passing Dalek shuttle.

Si.

[Antony Cox]

I was quite tired when I watched this which was half the reason I kept falling asleep, but I truly found it rather dull and boring. OK, it was a different kind of Dalek story which is a good thing as I'm not a big fan of them, but my interest just wasn't piqued.

HST the new companion looks promising.

3/10

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

I'm going to slip on my feeble Doctor Who anorak for a moment (those who've met me know my Doctor Who anorak is limited to loving the programme and not much more ) & make a comment. Plot holes aside I liked this story. 8/10 would be my score, there were faults/plot holes yes, but 1 thing really bothered me.
IIRC all the Daleks that "landed" on Exxilon were destroyed either on Exxilon or in the ship that Galloway destroyed. So who was the survivor from Exxilon in the Infirmary?

Can I join you behind that sofa please Tim?

I thought all the Daleks were destroyed in most of those stories (and if we're going for the real elephant in the room - I thought Skaro had gone the same way as Gallifrey or was that "New Skaro" or is that the one that the one that got destroyed in Remembrance ) -
In any case they were nice references especially Exxilon as "Death to..." was the the handful we had on video when I was younger so I've fond memories of regular viewings.

[Utermazan]

Twitter seems to have declared Oswin the most important character in Doctor Who ever, and it makes me wonder whether she would have been as liked if she wasn't played by a future companion.

I bet if Bob the Policeman from Logopolis had been revealed as a future companion, his death would immediately be labelled by the internet as "OMG SADDEST THING EVER!!!11!!" despite the fact he's only in the story for about 30 seconds.

People claiming Oswin is now "the best character in Doctor Who" are, in my opinion being a bit presumptive. She was in a single episode! So was, for example, Nancy from "The Empty Child" but I don't remember her being received so enthusiastically.

What I'm ranting basically, is that I find it annoying that Oswin is regarded as such a great character after only being in a single episode, when she wasn't even fleshed out particularly well.

The knowledge of her being a future companion has made her unreasonably popular as a character.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Good to have you on board Utermazan

I can't comment on your twitter timeline as I don't know who you're following (although it sounds like you may want to consider some judicious unfollowing) but I thought Jenna-Louise was very good but then I saw her in Titanic earlier this year so I wasn't surprised how well she came across in her Who debut but I would agree that we weren't really given enough to go on with Oswin to be proclaiming her as the greatest character ever just yet.

It seems likely that there will be some kind of connection between Oswin and "Clara" and they may even be one and the same person but obviously I'm not about to speculate on that and until we get the pay off at Christmas proclaiming Oswin the greatest character ever does seem rather premature!