Rate and Discuss: The Angels Take Manhattan

[MacNimon]

I really enjoyed that one. No surprises either as regarding the Ponds departure...when I first saw that the angels would feature in their final story, I had a feeling that they would be sent back in time to live out their lives together. While I wasn't surprised in that regard, I was also glad to see it...it was nice to see that they got a long and happy life together, while also fulfilling Karen's desire for Amy to die at the same time.

It was good to see that this was more of a sequel to Blink rather than the S5 two-parter, the Angels seem so much more threatening in an Earth setting. Too bad there wasn't so much emphasis put on the 'Don't Blink' mantra of the original...it rather distilled the threat a bit when characters didn't even appear to be worried about the statues moving when they're not looking. But anyone who watched Blink must have had an inkling of Amy and Rory's final fate...the sad thing for me was that we had just been introduced to Rory's dad, who had been a fantastic addition to the cast and I'm really sorry that we're not going to be seeing more of him either

However, the manner of the Ponds departure has a silver lining which I'm surprised no-one has mentioned yet...given that they lived to a ripe old age, surely there's plenty of scope for a spin-off series? I'm sure that Amy and Rory will continue to find trouble whatever they do in trying to carve out a new life for themselves. And exactly how they'd deal with Zygons and the likes in Victorian times without the Doctor's help would be interesting to see....

Hopefully Karen and Arthur could be persuaded to reprise their roles two or three years down the line. The Amy Pond Adventures, anyone? A ready-made replacement for the sadly-missed Sarah-Jane Adventures...

And some great tabloid reporting in the link below...they can't even properly report on what actually happened...

Mail Online

[Utermazan]

A bit of a mess in my opinion. Fifteen minutes in and nothing had really happened, mainly due to that bit at the beginning with the private investigator. Then suddenly River Song appears for no apparent reason. I mean was she really needed? When Rory got thrown into the basement with the cherubs it seemed a bit strange how she just let it happen, he is her dad after all!
The suicide pact was quite sweet, but then it got completely reset. I was wondering whether Rory and Old Rory would do a Mawdryn Undead thing where the time energy got rid of the angels. As has been mentioned earlier, I don't understand why the Doctor couldn't just land outside of New York and go and pick Rory up. Promised "to make everyone cry" , I didn't find it that sad.

It wasn't great, but the angels remained creepy (and I'm thankful there wasn't a CGI Statue of Liberty coming alive). 5/10, by no means the best of the season.

I'm honestly surprised that the universe hasn't been torn apart by all of these plot holes appearing recently.

[egdcltd]

And some great tabloid reporting in the link below...they can't even properly report on what actually happened...

Not just them, it looks like it's a general misunderstanding.

uk.news.yahoo.com/amy-pond-leaves-blazing-glory-230756789.html

[Larry]

. Then suddenly River Song appears for no apparent reason. I mean was she really needed? When Rory got thrown into the basement with the cherubs it seemed a bit strange how she just let it happen, he is her dad after all!

well you've pretty much answered your own question there the story arc for series 6 was pretty muuch built around the Ponds finding ut that River was their daughter so it makes perfect sense for her to be in it.

[Alex]

I think, within the story anyway*, the point was that once they'd "seen" the future they couldn't change it. Hence, Rory sees his own gravestone and effectively that's it for him**.

Since we don't see (and from memory, although I've not watched it again yet, Amy doesn't look either) the rest of the gravestone until AFTER Amy's gone too, I guess the gravestone is a bit sort of 'quantum physics'-y isn't it - until Amy makes a decision, or until somebody reads what the stone says, she could still either go with the Doctor or 'go' with the Angel. I quite like that.


*There may well be many other stories where this isn't so, but in this one it was made very explicit by all the business about the book and the wrist, etc.

**True, seeing a gravestone with your name isn't quite the same as seeing your own death, but... but then, I guess the fact that once he'd seen it, the Angel zapped him, was the proof that it really was his gravestone!!

Yeah, I think you're on to something there. Though I guess it doesn't explain why the Doctor couldn't have popped in for a cup of tea every so often, just to say hello...

I'd have preferred it if both names had disappeared from the gravestone, that way we wouldn't have known what had happened to the Ponds, other than that they no longer died in New York...

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Yeah, I think you're on to something there. Though I guess it doesn't explain why the Doctor couldn't have popped in for a cup of tea every so often, just to say hello...

That never happened to Jo or Sarah-Jane and they weren't trapped in fixed points in time. As the 11th Doctor later admitted to Jo, he never goes back because he can't and in this instance it's never been more true.

[Utermazan]

Something else in this story was the creepy kid at about 2 minutes in with her hands over her eyes. She seemed to get forgotten, just like last weeks creepy child.

[Jason Thompson]

Well, that was OK, but not the great heartbreaking climax we were promised.

The Angels were good once more. Fast, frozen when they could be seen, and again scary. The idea of a battery farm where they just keep zapping people back in time to feed was quite disturbing. The Statue of Liberty Angel was not. Like last year's astronaut, it was there because it was a cool image, but it added nothing to the plot and was just there to look cool and nothing else. If anything it looked like it was put there just to make the teaser of a man we don't know being threatened by Angels a bit more interesting as a hook.

The conclusion of the Amy and Rory arc was, frankly, a bit flat for me. I was glad that we saw them both zapped back by the Angels, and glad that they did get to live out their lives together. The joint suicide to stop the Angels was excellent, especially 'please tell me I'm wrong because I'm really, really scared right now' from Rory. The final departure fell a little flat for me because in my mind, as much as I like the characters and actors, they outstayed their narrative welcome. They've already been killed, resurrected, been alternate versions, been dropped back home and so on. They've left in every way a companion has ever left the show. I thought the end of last season with them being at home and overjoyed when River tells them the Doctor is still alive and travelling was a perfect end for them, and we could have moved on. Instead we have the Doctor doing what his previous incarnation said he never could: repeatedly popping back in on them, picking them up, taking them home, and so on, so that now there had to be a whole plot about time distortions and fixed time to explain why, when they both got zapped back into the past, he couldn't still go and see them at any point in the rest of their lives, and I'm still not sure it made any sense.

And once again Rory got short-changed on the whole leaving scene business. In The God Complex he was indoors while Amy and the Doctor had a farewell chat. The The Wedding of River Song he was indoors while Amy and River had a chat about the Doctor not being dead. Here he's zapped back in time and the Doctor and Amy have the emotional goodbye. And incidentally, I don't know who the selfish git trying to get Amy not to go after the man he knows she loves more than anything in the world was, but he certainly wasn't the Doctor who went along with Amy when she decided to kill herself in what may or may not have been a false reality after seeing Rory turn to dust after being gassed by an old woman with an alien inside her, or set them up for reconciliation on the Dalek Asylum when their marriage was in trouble. Yes he's going to be upset that he'll never see her again, but after everything he's done to get those two together, to suggest she doesn't go after him just didn't feel right.

And I think we've had enough of things 'un-happening'. Moffatt loves his 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey', but now it's just old. Enough of characters seeing the future, knowing what will happen, hearing prophecies, having to make events happen or unhappen, etc.

The pre-publicity for the new companion doesn't give me any hope, but I'd like to see more stories happening to the Doctor and his companions, rather than stories being backdrop events for the story of the Doctor and his companions.

So an OK episode, but one which I feel has been heavily undermined by the ways in which Amy and Rory have already died/left/been picked up and dropped home etc.

[Nyder]

I really enjoyed this one. The Statue of Liberty "angel" was genuinely scarey, and will probably stay with me all night (I want my mummy )

I thought River's performance was the best I've seen, i.e. not too "smart arsey". Yes once again there were a lot of plot holes, especially:-

I saw Amy blink during her final stand-off with the angel in the graveyard

Mike McShane's role was a bit too similar to Van Statten's character in Dalek, and he just sort of fizzled out as the story progressed.

However, the story kept me gripped throughout and Amy & Rory's departure did cause some eye leakage here in the Nyder bunker.

A great end to this mini-season.

9/10 from me.

[Darren]

7 out of 10

As has been said a bit of a mish mash.

[Andrew Curnow]

I'd like to see more stories happening to the Doctor and his companions, rather than stories being backdrop events for the story of the Doctor and his companions

Absolutely! I feel exactly the same.

[Stuart Wallis]

...which is just how the series used to be once upon a time...

As for this story - oh dear oh dear...

Oh cripes not the Angels again! Ditto River Song. Ditto wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey. Ditto more holes in the plot than in a seive. Another dull story with not much happening in it. Mike McShane was wasted. Angel of Liberty - WTF? How did the Angel at the end manage to escape when we assume none of the others did? And the only emotion the drawn-out ending caused me to feel was "Get a ruddy move on!"

An unadulterated mess. 2/10.

[Perry Vale]

And I normally do manage to avoid most spoilers, but this one's been everywhere.

Well I'd have been blissfully unaware if I hadn't read the thread for last week's episode...

Sort of spoiled it for me, so don't know how to vote just now. Some good things, and some bad. I guessed we'd see a Liberty Angel immediately the episode started, which just seemed like a silly, smug thing to include. Was there any other reason to set the story there?

Also, as much as I love the River stories with all four cast, her inclusion here seemed quite pointless.

[egdcltd]

I think (have to watch the episode again to check) that there was a logical reason why the Doctor couldn't go back again to save Rory, a reason which didn't have anything to do with him crossing his timeline, or returning somewhere, or anything like that which he's done before.

I think the reason was doing so would have destroyed New York, because to escape the Angels again would have created another paradox and New York couldn't take another. Which is at least a coherent reason.

[Jason Thompson]

I think the reason was doing so would have destroyed New York, because to escape the Angels again would have created another paradox and New York couldn't take another. Which is at least a coherent reason.

That doesn't explain why the Doctor can't go along and see them again, even if he doesn't take them off in the TARDIS ever again.

[egdcltd]

That doesn't explain why the Doctor can't go along and see them again, even if he doesn't take them off in the TARDIS ever again.

Who knows? He may. It's not like we have definite proof that they actually died when it said on the tombstone.

But really, the reason is probably more to do with the actors leaving the show than anything else.

[Anthony Williams]

You know, if you're going to write a story about creatures that turn to stone whenever anyone looks at them (including each other), that's cool. But if you're going to re-use the same creatures that you made up for that story in later stories, you really need to stick to the rules you made up about them in the first place.

And for me, that was the worst thing about this story. Particularly the nonsense about the Statue of Liberty - New York is a busy, busy city. There is no way that something as large as the Statue of Liberty would be able to move without someone looking at it. Sadly, that's just another example of something being thrown in "because it will look cool". There was no narrative reason for it, whatsoever.

Then there was the whole "The Doctor can't land the TARDIS in NYC". Since when? He managed it perfectly well in The Chase, and even more recently in Daleks in Manhattan.

And what of Amy and Rory's departure? Well, Rory undoubtedly got shafted - he didn't get a proper goodbye or anything. But he'd "died" so many times before that seeing his grave had very, very little impact on me as a viewer. And Amy has "left" before, so that didn't have much of an impact on me, either. It just fell rather flat. Then there was The Doctor's uncharacteristic behaviour. Throughout their travels, he has encouraged Amy to choose Rory over him. Yet, here, we see him try to encourage her to choose him over joining Rory in the past - which was up there with the Tenth Doctor's tantrum at Wilf in uncharacteristic moments for me.

As Jason said, all the "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" (God, I hate that phrase) stuff is getting dull now. We've seen it and done it. I'm ready to go back to traditional stories. I really, really am. Moffat isn't nearly as clever as he seems to think that he is.

Still, there was at least one good thing about this story - the fact that the rest of River Song's story now seems to be complete. I genuinely hope that that'll be the very last we see of that wretched character.

Hopefully, things will be much better when started afresh with a new companion at Christmas and beyond. Because God knows that I'm ready for something new...

[Dino]

Maybe I've got this all wrong, but I thought it wasn't Manhattan they went to, but this was an Angel created otherworld full of people they had sent back in time, so it was easy for the Angel Statue to stomp around. When I get round to watching it, I'll point out the scene. But I'm 50% sure this was explained.

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Maybe I've got this all wrong, but I thought it wasn't Manhattan they went to, but this was an Angel created otherworld full of people they had sent back in time, so it was easy for the Angel Statue to stomp around. When I get round to watching it, I'll point out the scene. But I'm 50% sure this was explained.

Wow!
Well if that is the case then I totally missed the reference!

I though the story was ok. The Angels were better here than the last time we saw them. I'm not really a fan on the angels (I'm in Si Hart's 'we hate BLINK' club) and I can only take so much of River.
I didn't come away thinking that I didn't like it so that's a good thing!

I have to echo what Ant said though; I would like more traditional style stories with less emphasis on messing about with time within them (other than perhaps the initial setting of the story).
It's not that I don't like the clever stuff; I just think it's been done to death recently.

[Alex]

Well I'd have been blissfully unaware if I hadn't read the thread for last week's episode...

Phew, just checked the other thread and it wasn't me...But I can imagine how frustrating that must have been, I've avoided all the other spoilers for this series so far, but unfortunately picked up a copy of the Metro on the tube several months back only for it to be a big story in it. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was just about Karen and Arthur leaving, but all the crap with Moffat going about how tragic and tear-jerking it was going to be definitely spoilt the episode for me.

[Andrew Curnow]

That doesn't explain why the Doctor can't go along and see them again, even if he doesn't take them off in the TARDIS ever again.

This doesn't really answer the questions, as I'm sure there was some 'timey-wimey' explanation offered during that last graveyard scene as to why he couldn't, but... at least within the internal logic of this episode, surely the answer is he can't now go along and see them because he's read Amy's Afterword, which is clearly written by an Amy who never saw him again after that day. So it's fixed.

Just a thought.

[Perry Vale]

...but all the crap with Moffat going about how tragic and tear-jerking it was going to be definitely spoilt the episode for me.

You see, that's one of the reasons that's driven me so spoiler-free over the last couple of years. I've noticed quite a few similar instances where people comment on these threads that they were let down after a load of hype (A Good Man Goes To War and Asylum Of The Daleks, as two examples). I haven't suffered from any of that and as such enjoyed those episodes much more, I think.

Btw, sorry if my quoting you made you think it was you who let slip. I knew they'd be going at some point in this series, but not how, but didn't even know this was a five episode block. I thought that it might probably be seven like last year, but for all I knew it could have been a complete 13 week run.

This doesn't really answer the questions, as I'm sure there was some 'timey-wimey' explanation offered during that last graveyard scene as to why he couldn't....

I do feel people are going over this too much, it's exactly the same plot device as Rose being trapped in a Universe that the Doctor could never return to...

[Mike Saville]

My thoughts. Some great ideas badly executed. The time's fluid until you see it written down was quite cleverly done. Baby Angels was a very, very creepy bit that I'd never considered- I like it on the rare occasions when Who can still do that after nearly 40 years of watching. The Angel constructed trap was a very neat bit of scary narrative evil... but... oh, where do I start?

Statue of Liberty? Utter shoite. Even taking away the notion that a 200 ft construct made of stone could walk, unnoticed, along the streets of the city that doesn't sleep, angels are aliens. real aliens. They're NOT any (or worse ALL) old statues imbued with life. It was unnecessary and lazy writing.

[Jason Thompson]

it's exactly the same plot device as Rose being trapped in a Universe that the Doctor could never return to...

It's not, though, is it? Parallel Universes have always been rpesented as bloody difficult to get to in Who. The TARDIS can travel throughout all of time and space, as we are repeatedly told. Nothing indicates why the Doctor can't just travel to a point in time with Amy in it.

[Jason Thompson]

Then there was the whole "The Doctor can't land the TARDIS in NYC". Since when? He managed it perfectly well in The Chase, and even more recently in Daleks in Manhattan.

They did specifically say he can't land in NYC in 1938 due to the Angels setting up their farm there. It was 1938 New York they bounced off of, but 2012 New York was where they were to begin with, so it's not the city but that specific point in space and time.