Rate and Discuss: The Angels Take Manhattan

[Philipnet]

What did you think of The Angels Take Manhattan?

[Si Hunt]

A few thoughts:

- It was a bit like the reverse of last week - a not so great story saved by the ending
- The last shot, fading to sepia, was lovely, and reminded me a bit of "The Hand of Fear" ending
- The pre-credits was way, way too long and dull. If I were a casual viewer, I'd have switched off before the end of five Doctorless minutes of some American bloke wandering about not doing anything
- The Liberty Angel didn't actually do anything did it?
- It was a lovely touch that in the end, Amy had to choose between the Doctor and Rory, and chose Rory
- Unfortunately, like some of the other Angels episodes, it was spoiled by the concept of the Angels being just too complex to be able to pull off properly. There seems to be some confusion now between "they move when you don't look at them" and "they move when the lights go out". It's weird, but an acceptable narrative device, that we've rarely seen an Angel move. Why don't they romp around all over the place when characters arn't looking at them? Unless we, the viewer, are included? But surely that can't be the case or no-one would ever get "got". But, specifically, when River was held by the Angel, neither her not the American bloke seemed remotely bothered about not looking at it! And although it was said to be too weak to send her back in time, why didn't it still move around? Or kill her by strangling her? What did the Doctor and River do about the Angel that zapped Amy at the end? How they they escape? Did they leave it in New York to send innocent passers by back in time?

All in all, it's not my favourite episode of the season and probably my least favourite of the three Weeping Angels storys. I didn't feel remotely like crying over the ending, though it was probably the highlight of an episode with a bit too much running about and, I suspect, more plot holes than a fishing net. It didn't feel especially CLEVER, like "Blink" did, the ending aside. It was actually quite simple and plotless, although the book was a nice device. There wasn't that much to it. And I have never liked, and still don't like, the setting of prohibition New York.

Also stingy old Christmas trailer. Don't spoil us with too many clips will you.

Si.

[MinaHarker]

I liked it.

[Si Hunt]

Nice that Rory got to die on screen one final time!!

Si.

[Si Hunt]

Why not make Amy die slightly before Rory, rather than after, to explain why she wasn't by his side as an old woman when he died?

Si.

[Alex]

I've very mixed feelings about it. I enjoyed the first half a lot, and felt the Angels were genuinely scary again (after being a bit disappointed by them in last year's two parter), but the second half felt forced and manipulative, and plot holes frustrated (more on those in a bit). I'd probably have enjoyed it more if, like in the 80s, I had no idea of who was leaving the show in advance, as I think it'd have been a lot more effective that way. And I normally do manage to avoid most spoilers, but this one's been everywhere.

I'm normally quite forgiving on the plot holes side of things, but a couple frustrated here - for instance they seemed to be able to run past some Angels (like the ones in the hotel room) but dashed away from those on the stairwells, which didn't make a lot of sense to me. And when it comes to Amy and Rory's ultimate fate, I didn't know why the Doctor couldn't use one of River's handy time vortex things to go back (and take a couple along for Amy or Rory too), or even land the Tardis in England and travel to the US by boat, and bring them back to the future then if need be.

My biggest issue is still the fact that it felt so manipulative though, with the cloying voice over and OTT score spoiling things for me, which is a shame as I've always really liked the Ponds and just wish there final story was a bit stronger than this one.

7/10.

[Alex]

Why not make Amy die slightly before Rory, rather than after, to explain why she wasn't by his side as an old woman when he died?

Si.

I guess presumably due to their creating the paradox, Rory didn't die in the Hotel, but elsewhere.

[Alex Me]

Another great episode, cementing one of the strongest runs the new series has ever had.

Fun, exciting, and emotional just like who should be.

8/10

[SiHart]

It was a good end for Amy and Rory. I loved them standing on the edge of the roof, talking, getting ready to die together. How incredibly brave and for a while I really thought they'd go out in a suicide pact. I, of course, should have known better. There was some great work from Gillan and Darvill, and you know after this year, I think I'm going to miss them, well, him certainly at the very least.

I don't know though, somehow it just didn't quite work for me. There was lots of good stuff and lots of good images throughout, but it I didn't engage with it as much as I'd hoped. Maybe it's because I'm extremely tired and maybe I need to watch it again, but for me that was a 7/10 episode.

[Andrew Curnow]

I really enjoyed it - I'm not a fan of River Song, and actually it's hard to really claim she added an awful lot to the episode, BUT given that it was another story which more or less featured only the four 'regular' cast it was infinitely better than Let's Kill Hitler. Hopefully now we've seen the end of this business of people leaving themselves notes (in this case whole books) as it has kind of gone from being 'a bit of fun in a time travel show' to 'silly and repetitive'.

I thought it was a strong story, and since I did feel a bit emotional at the end I guess that for once it actually lived up to its hype a bit - the one thing I would say is that I don't for an instant believe that the Statue of Liberty could take a stroll without anybody noticing. But in the interests of being objective, I've never for one minute believed that Azal could stroll through an English village without being seen and that's generally considered 'a classic'!!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

4/10 from me. It was just a big mish mashy mess again. Looking back at it I have no idea who or what the Mike McShane character was or what he was doing, if anything. What was the point of the Chinese pottery? Just to tell River to set up a homing beacon for him? Why didn't she do that anyway? How did the single word "Yowzah" tell her to do that? Why was she even there? Statue of Liberty being an angel - nice idea until you think about it for more than 0.4 seconds. What happened to the angel at the end? What happened to ANY of them? Why is it suddenly impossible to change the future when you know what it's going to be, when it never was in episodes like "The Girl Who Waited"? How does breaking your wrist help you get your arm free from the grip of a stone hand?

All a bit crap really and I'm thinking 4/10 is a bit generous now. Still, it's nice that that scene from The Eleventh Hour finally makes sense now.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Unnecessary original post as someone already answered Si's question.


Anyway to get back on subject I really liked the episode and I'm another well known non fan of Blink but finally the silly ending where they suggested every single statue in London could be an angel actually paid off. Yes the statute of Liberty thing was a bit silly but the episode needed some fun to lighten the darkness.

[Si Hunt]

What scene in 11th Hour now makes sense?

Si.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

We see Amy sat in her garden and suddenly she hears the TARDIS noise. Of course it's edited to make us think that was the TARDIS landing in the same place 12 years later (which it did in the next scene).

[Si Hunt]

So are we supposed to think The Doctor nipped back and told her about all her adventures in advance? No wonder she was always smug and pouty when she should have seemed frightened!

Si.

[Dino]

My impulses are quite erratic at best, but by getting myself down to "One Who a week" for this series, it had sharpened my enjoyment of the series. Before I'd be watching VHS over and over again, glad new Doctor Who back on TV.
It's a great thing to do for those who go out of their way to avoid press spoilers.

The only two things I would consider junking was Sting on the Soundtrack. (What better sums up 2012 than that 1980's "classic"? They should have used that potty mouth "#Ay O... What you gonna do when I premiere?/ This all should have been mine! Mine! Oh wait, that was 2011. Never mind, mark down point denied) and also we didn't get that much of the Next Time trailer. But at least that was respectfully kept after the credits.

And I get this right? The Statue of Liberty can walk around without any attention as it wasn't a time area, it was an actual replica filled with the people who had gone back in time.

Amy and Rory have beaten Donna for ending. And the programme has actually beaten Adric! I had tears welling and an inability to speak twice.
The Angels became scary again. Matt Smith's best ever episode.

It has to be 10.

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm a bit fed up with the "don't be alone Doctor" thing too by now. OK, yes, we get it!!!!!!

[duncan]

Best of this series for me. The angels were scary again and I loved the scene where the angel blew out the match.

Also, that was in my opinion the best departure for a companion ever.

[Si Hunt]

It's a shame we never had a Doctor/Rory episode without Amy. I had an idea for an episode which started with the TARDIS landing and Rory and the Doctor waiting for Amy to get ready before they could go out, so they venture out anyway, have an adventure, then get back just in time for her to emerge all glammed up to say "Right, are we leaving now?". Cue Doctor and Rory giving each other secretive looks and end titles crashing in.

It would have worked! And given Arthur a chance to glitter!

Si.

[Larry]

very enjoyable episode that brought a tear t the eye and a lump to the throat a nice way for the Ponds to go out and I'm so pleased they were sent back in time to live out their lives together rather than being killed off.

[Larry]

e And when it comes to Amy and Rory's ultimate fate, I didn't know why the Doctor couldn't use one of River's handy time vortex things to go back (and take a couple along for Amy or Rory too), or even land the Tardis in England and travel to the US by boat, and bring them back to the future then if need be.


7/10.

if the Doctor could simply go back in time to bring the Ponds forward then it makes the Angels all rather pointless If the Doctor could of done it than he would of but I suspect once the Angels have sent a person back there is some fixed point time law that means it can't be changed.

[Larry]

It was a good end for Amy and Rory. I loved them standing on the edge of the roof, talking, getting ready to die together. How incredibly brave and for a while I really thought they'd go out in a suicide pact. I, of course, should have known better.
.

TBH I was thinking the same but now when you think about it killing off a companion by being shot or dying of some thing is one thing but to actually have them committing suicide is a line that even Moffatt, would not cross.

[Andrew Curnow]

And when it comes to Amy and Rory's ultimate fate, I didn't know why the Doctor couldn't use one of River's handy time vortex things to go back (and take a couple along for Amy or Rory too), or even land the Tardis in England and travel to the US by boat, and bring them back to the future then if need be.

I think, within the story anyway*, the point was that once they'd "seen" the future they couldn't change it. Hence, Rory sees his own gravestone and effectively that's it for him**.

Since we don't see (and from memory, although I've not watched it again yet, Amy doesn't look either) the rest of the gravestone until AFTER Amy's gone too, I guess the gravestone is a bit sort of 'quantum physics'-y isn't it - until Amy makes a decision, or until somebody reads what the stone says, she could still either go with the Doctor or 'go' with the Angel. I quite like that.


*There may well be many other stories where this isn't so, but in this one it was made very explicit by all the business about the book and the wrist, etc.

**True, seeing a gravestone with your name isn't quite the same as seeing your own death, but... but then, I guess the fact that once he'd seen it, the Angel zapped him, was the proof that it really was his gravestone!!

[Simon R]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Rory's
Dad. There should have been a scene where he received a note from the past or something saying that Amy and Rory were fine and living a good life.

[Junkyard]

A fine exit for the Ponds and great performances from all four major cast. There were a number of plot holes, all mentioned in previous posts so I won't reinterate them here, but they didn't spoil it for me. The 'Man on the Ledge' scene by Arthur and Karen was one of their best performances and, in fact, the highlight of this series for me so far. The final departure of the Ponds was almost an anticlimax by comparison.