Maggie Thatcher has died

[duncan]

Former Tory prime minister Margaret Thatcher has died this morning following a stroke.

[Nyder]

Does that mean my milk is safe now?

[SiHart]

Well this is going to be interesting. I don't know what her place in history is going to be. I know that even now over 20 years since she left office, she's still equally venerated and hated across the country.

Blimey.

[Philipnet]

I'm currently watching an elongated tribute to Baroness Thatcher on BBC 1 HD.

I think Nyder's milk is finally safe

[Nyder]

Some of my Scottish and Welsh friends have always said they'd throw a party on this day. Like Si said, this will be a fascinating news day.....

[SiHart]

Twitter is already stirring up a shitstorm of comment, on both sides, and that's just from the people I follow.

[Nyder]

My Twitter feed is broken. Good grief, she's taken the Internet down with her!

[Dirk Gently]

I can't see anyone shedding too many tears. I certainly won't.




There is already activity in the ex-mining areas with regards to getting buses to the funeral.

I believe they are having a draw for the order of who gets to dance on her grave first.

[Stuart Wallis]

Or just to make sure it's her they're burying.

[SiHart]

Her obit at the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10364876

[Jon Masters]

Don't want to get into an argument about the woman herself, but so glad in these times of austerity that the Government can steal benefits from some very deserving people and treat public sector 'hardworking' people like $h!#, but can afford to shell out for a public funeral and service at SP.

She'd have been so proud.

[MacNimon]

While I'm not one to celebrate the death of anyone, I was never a fan myself, coming as I do from one of those mining communities affected by the strike. I'll not be dancing on her grave, but I'd be quite happy if she was simply awarded a quiet family funeral and just allow the rest of us to forget about her. While I (or my family) wasn't personally affected, we knew many who were and feelings certainly ran deep where she was concerned. Scargill was possibly just as much to blame there as well, imo...two stubborn leaders determined not to lose ground.

Maggie's big problem wasn't just the fact that she was prepared to close down complete industries, but the fact that she didn't appear to care about the impact of her decisions on entire communities. Just like that lot in office at the moment, no thought seemed to be given to the consequences caused by certain policies. Cut, cut, cut...or back in the 80s, close, close, close...But in my mind, if the mines (or any other industry for that matter) had to be closed because they weren't profitable, it's an understandable decision but where it's going to have such a huge impact on entire communities, surely something should be put in place - investment, training, grants etc - to encourage new employers to come to an area with a large and willing potential workforce? But I suppose such a naive view shows just why I'm not a politician...

I'm sitting here trying to see some positives from her tenure, apparently there WERE some or so I'm led to believe...and the only obvious one is that of allowing people to buy their council houses, allowing people who may never have otherwise have got on the property ladder to do so. Although this obviously had the side effect of causing housing shortages for those in need...

One last thing...the Poll Tax. In Scotland a full year as a trial before being rolled out round the rest of the UK. Possibly the most hated tax in Scottish history...but was it the tax itself or was it because of who imposed it?

Despite all the negative things I think about her, and what many seemed to simply and so openly hate about her, as Ralph said on Facebook this simply made her achievements in winning 3 elections all the more impressive. She obviously had something going for her, didn't she? Once she had decided something, there was no turning back.

It's certainly interesting watching the news today, with all the fawning going on the main BBC news - almost hero worship - then seeing the Scottish news and all the hatred and vitriol on display.

One thing's for certain...she'll never be forgotten, will she?

[Ralph]

Some of my Scottish and Welsh friends have always said they'd throw a party on this day. Like Si said, this will be a fascinating news day.....

Don't assume that's everyone in Scotland

[SiHart]

Watching the coverage this evening has brought home to me that whatever her legacy is, one things for sure- she was a truly great orator. Her speeches were astonishingly well delivered, whatever you thought of the content, she could certainly get her message across.

[Jon Masters]

That's true of lots of dictators

[SiHart]

Well yes, it struck me that that was something the very powerful have in common!

[Ralph]

My view point for what it's worth... revamped from "The Hive"...

As a 15 year old in 1978 I was amazed at the way the country was back then. Yes it's true even the dead couldn't be buried... anybody who could strike was on strike and then some. Jim Callaghan the Labour PM was out of the country at the time and was asked about the crisis at home and famously declared "what crisis?". The country was on a downward spiral - it felt worse than the world crisis of 2008 and Britain's status in the World was rock bottom.

In 1979 someone had to pick up the gauntlet to save us from extreme socialism which held the country in this downward spiral and she rose to the challenge. Yes tough controversial decisions had to be made. Old industries like Mining were outmoded and needed change but sadly that meant the demise of communities of essentially hard working people who knew no other trade - so I understand the hatred for that but hey it was inevitable those industries were in decline - could more have been done to help those communities - I think so. Did the Unions increase the misery to their own supporters - yes I think so cue Scargill et al.

As for Nationalised Industries back then, they were draining the UK Economy, massively inefficient she transformed these businesses for better or worse but they were no good as they were, so what would have the opposition done? If they were any good in opposition they could have put forward some proposals for alternatives - but as I recall they had no other solutions.

On manufacturing we should have a strong British Car Industry today - look at all the major countries in the Western World and this shows a clear problem so her actions appear to have been unsuccessful in this regard... I do see this as a serious flaw. Car manufacturing clearly creates lots of supporting industries...

Falklands - a part of the UK soveriegnty was attacked - she did what was required - it was unpleasant but it was necessary to protect British interests throughout the world. We were not the aggresor like a certain politician in 2003...

In Europe she was ballsy - she stood on her own at times to defend our interests and get those massive rebates - good on her!

Council Houses - I think it was fantastic that millions of ordinary working people could buy the homes they had rented all these years and give them security. The circumstances on the property market , the overheating, the lack of social housing are issues of the governments of the 1990s and 2000s -the blame for lack of housing now shouldn't be dumped at her door.

The poll tax of 1989 - a total disaster in it's implementation - but the rates system before it was unfair too! To this day householders have to shoulder the burden - I was better off under the poll tax and still would be now. I pay £1500 a year and that's with a 25% rebate for the Council Tax - whoopy do! If the Poll Tax was here today I'd say I'd be paying £500 but hey ho the silent majority just get on with it and cough up

So the 1979 and 1983 terms, fairly good job in tough difficult times. 1987 term was rubbish - She should never have been in for that third term - she became a megalomaniac at that point. I was totally in support of Geoffrey Howe in 1990 who I think was a fair minded solid statesmanlike politician. He knew she was damaging the UK by that time having lost touch with the solid core of the British people.

Would the re-election of Jim Callaghan in 1979, master architect of the Unions have led to a stronger UK - I don't think so! I genuinely believe we are stonger today now than we would have been.

Do I think the wealth distribution of the country in 2013 is fair - NO.
Do I think Thatcher should be blamed - NOT SURE but it was up to the oppposition to redress the balance but instead they followed her path.
Do I think there is considerable responsibility of Tony Blair's years to allow the overheating of the structure set up by Thatcher - YES.

Just my tuppence worth

Oh and watching The BBC1 programme tonight I thought it showed the good and the bad very fairly.

Thatcher RIP

[Nyder]

I'm really disappointed by the (mostly) fawning nature of the Thatcher news. A bit of balance please Auntie!

[Ralph]

The BBC coverage imo is totally in order and fairly balanced and certainly reflects the era.

[Rob McCow]

Excellent balanced commentary from Ralph! Let me add my gibberish.

Can I add that also she didn't start a nuclear war? I know it was mainly US vs Russia in the 80's, but she played her part.

To use a lever analogy to massively oversimplify things:
When she started, the levers were all pushed in one direction.
She pulled them massively in the other direction to get the country working again.
Problem since then is that they've continued to be pushed in the same direction and now we've gone way too far in the other direction.

I don't think Britian would work as a socialist country - but perhaps we could do with a bit more socialism.

[MacNimon]

My view point for what it's worth... revamped from "The Hive"...

As a 15 year old in 1978 I was amazed at the way the country was back then. Yes it's true even the dead couldn't be buried... anybody who could strike was on strike and then some. Jim Callaghan the Labour PM was out of the country at the time and was asked about the crisis at home and famously declared "what crisis?". The country was on a downward spiral - it felt worse than the world crisis of 2008 and Britain's status in the World was rock bottom.

In 1979 someone had to pick up the gauntlet to save us from extreme socialism which held the country in this downward spiral and she rose to the challenge. Yes tough controversial decisions had to be made. Old industries like Mining were outmoded and needed change but sadly that meant the demise of communities of essentially hard working people who knew no other trade - so I understand the hatred for that but hey it was inevitable those industries were in decline - could more have been done to help those communities - I think so. Did the Unions increase the misery to their own supporters - yes I think so cue Scargill et al.

As for Nationalised Industries back then, they were draining the UK Economy, massively inefficient she transformed these businesses for better or worse but they were no good as they were, so what would have the opposition done? If they were any good in opposition they could have put forward some proposals for alternatives - but as I recall they had no other solutions.

On manufacturing we should have a strong British Car Industry today - look at all the major countries in the Western World and this shows a clear problem so her actions appear to have been unsuccessful in this regard... I do see this as a serious flaw. Car manufacturing clearly creates lots of supporting industries...

Falklands - a part of the UK soveriegnty was attacked - she did what was required - it was unpleasant but it was necessary to protect British interests throughout the world. We were not the aggresor like a certain politician in 2003...

In Europe she was ballsy - she stood on her own at times to defend our interests and get those massive rebates - good on her!

Council Houses - I think it was fantastic that millions of ordinary working people could buy the homes they had rented all these years and give them security. The circumstances on the property market , the overheating, the lack of social housing are issues of the governments of the 1990s and 2000s -the blame for lack of housing now shouldn't be dumped at her door.

The poll tax of 1989 - a total disaster in it's implementation - but the rates system before it was unfair too! To this day householders have to shoulder the burden - I was better off under the poll tax and still would be now. I pay £1500 a year and that's with a 25% rebate for the Council Tax - whoopy do! If the Poll Tax was here today I'd say I'd be paying £500 but hey ho the silent majority just get on with it and cough up

So the 1979 and 1983 terms, fairly good job in tough difficult times. 1987 term was rubbish - She should never have been in for that third term - she became a megalomaniac at that point. I was totally in support of Geoffrey Howe in 1990 who I think was a fair minded solid statesmanlike politician. He knew she was damaging the UK by that time having lost touch with the solid core of the British people.

Would the re-election of Jim Callaghan in 1979, master architect of the Unions have led to a stronger UK - I don't think so! I genuinely believe we are stonger today now than we would have been.

Do I think the wealth distribution of the country in 2013 is fair - NO.
Do I think Thatcher should be blamed - NOT SURE but it was up to the oppposition to redress the balance but instead they followed her path.
Do I think there is considerable responsibility of Tony Blair's years to allow the overheating of the structure set up by Thatcher - YES.

Just my tuppence worth

Oh and watching The BBC1 programme tonight I thought it showed the good and the bad very fairly.

Thatcher RIP

Ralph has some good points there. The country certainly was in a state when she got in power. The unions simply had too much power at that time, with strike after strike in every walk of life. It was time for a change, simple as that. I think the knee-jerk reaction, trying to wipe them out, caused so much animosity though that you have to wonder whether it was worth it. Take the miners strike, for example...this was as much a power struggle between two determined leaders unable to give ground, Scargill perhaps propelled by his hatred of what Thatcher had done to the unions as much as anything else. There was only ever going going to be one winner in this fight...it was about two egos, as much as it was about the livelihoods of those millions of miners around the country. Yes, of course mining was outmoded and in decline - for example both my grandfathers were the last miners in my family as their families began to look for work in different walks of life, something which was by then commonplace when I was young - but I disagree with how she could just want to close down entire industries without any apparent thought put into what people in those affected communities would be able to do next. Granted, it wasn't just Mrs T who was guilty of this, every government I've seen in power has done the same...but I'd have thought that it would make sense for the economy to try to create some sort of infrastructure for the creation of jobs in the future rather than just simply closing everything down. As I said, my big problem with the woman was that she seemed not to care about the misery she caused to so many, the callousness of it. She just seemed so cold and unfeeling.

And as for the Poll Tax, it was indeed the implementation of it that I was referring to...it doesn't really matter what system is used to raise this sort of tax, nothing is going to be entirely fair but whether it's called rates, Poll Tax or Council Tax it's still always going to be there. To be fair, I honestly couldn't say whether I was better off with Poll Tax or Council Tax. But as for the Poll Tax itself, it was just felt as if Maggie was sticking the boot into Scotland by implementing it here a year before the rest of the country. It felt personal, as if she was doing it because of the massive drop in support north of the border in the wake of the miners strike...the megalomania taking over, so to speak.

[Stephen Morgan]

30 years too late as far as many mining communities are concerned. I can neither mourn nor exalt this woman, I saw first hand what she did in my community. My father was a miner, as was his father before him, I saw brother against brother, neighbour against neighbour. I saw people ostracised and people evicted from their homes due to Thatcher's policies and the miners' strike, and a lot of those people are still ignored by many today. My family were forced to accept handouts when my father was on strike in 84/85, but he, and many others stuck to their views before eventually trickling back to work, cowed by Thatcher's government.
In today's austere times, Cameron's cutbacks and biting welfare reforms, this woman is to be given full military honours at her funeral next week, disgusting. Me? I'd like to organise the biggest street party the Welsh valleys have ever known just to celebrate the fact that she's gone at long last.

[Dirk Gently]

I do have to take issue with people lumping together the housing Rates, the Poll tax & council tax. Rates & council tax are pretty much the same thing by any other name. But the Poll tax was something entirely different. I was living with my parents at the time & I was told to pay a tax just because I was of voting age, being able to vote at the poll meant you were taxed...it had nothing, NOTHING to do with having a home of your own!

That's why there were riots about it and I for one was wholeheartedly behind the rioters views. No government before (to my knowledge) or since has ever taxed someone just because they exist! It was a disgusting act & was rightly done away with.

Yes, everyone would have been better off with the poll tax in place...that's because all those over 18 would have been subsidising everyone else.

[Stuart Wallis]

This may be more Ant W's area, but here we go nevertheless...

Poll tax

The [Peasant's] revolt was precipitated by King Richard II's heavy-handed attempts to enforce the third medieval poll tax, first levied in 1377 supposedly to finance military campaigns overseas. Another poll tax was levied two years later in 1379 as well.

The third poll tax was not levied at a flat rate (as in 1377) nor according to schedule (as in 1379); instead, it allowed some of the poor to pay a reduced rate, while others who were equally poor had to pay the full tax, prompting calls of injustice. This new tax pertained to every man and woman over 15 years of age. The tax was set at three groats (equivalent to 12 pence or one shilling), compared with the 1377 rate of one groat (four pence). Another source of frustration was that King Richard was only 14 years old at the time and had a group of unpopular men dominating his government. These included John of Gaunt (the Duke of Lancaster), Simon Sudbury (Lord Chancellor and Archbishop of Canterbury, who was the figurehead to what many then saw as a corrupt church) and Sir Robert Hales (the Lord Treasurer, responsible for the poll tax). Many saw them as corrupt officials who were trying to exploit the weakness of the king.

The tax fell particularly hard on married women, who were taxed separately from their husbands regardless of their income or employment status. Women played a large part in the revolt, both as leaders and as part of the general mob.

[Lissa]

The Poll Tax is a red herring as far as Margaret Thatcher's legacy is concerned. It was towards the end of her reign, long after everyone's opinion about her was formed. She's not hated because of the Poll Tax and it's only brought out because it's one of the few indefensible policies of her time in office. It was proof she had been in power too long, nothing more and nothing less.

What she did was save the country when it needed saving. Britain in the late 1970s was bankrupt, crippled by the unions, hopelessly spending money it didn't have propping up industries that were falling apart. British industry was a money pit into which billions were pumped for the sole purpose of keeping the unions reasonably quiet. Inflation was out of control, bodies were rotting above ground, London was full of rubbish and power no longer resided in Parliament - it rested with the big unions and their bosses.

The unions had their chance to compromise and agree to reasonable regulation when Barbara Castle put forward a white paper designed to curb their powers. Had she succeeded then she might've been our first and only female PM instead of Maggie. But they weren't interested and rejected it. Having dominated two Labour Prime Minsters and brought down Edward Heath (all in the last 10 years) they thought they were unbeatable. They wanted a fight and they got one. Given the choice between trades unions running the country or Parliament then I choose Parliament.

If someone can explain how a moderate PM like Heath or Callaghan could've fixed Britain in 1979 then please do so. But doing nothing or continuing to pay people off not to cause trouble wasn't an option.

I'm no Conservative but I can see her in an objective, historical context and she did good. Not all the time but she did what she had to do. She promoted aspiration and others turned that into greed. That's human nature not her fault. She stopped propping up dying industries that had spent two decades surviving off Government hand outs rather than modernising themselves and innovating. She took complacent, fat, state monopolies and sold them off. The GPO with its lazy service and creaking infrastructure was replaced by a telecoms sector that had to invest, innovate and compete.

People who lost under Thatcher hate her because she promoted a culture of self interest. There is an irony there.