Who did John Hurt hurt?

[Perry Vale]

(I'm still half-expecting the title of River's first ever episode to have a deeper meaning...).

Interesting, do you have any thoughts as to what that could turn out to be? The Silence themselves, I suppose? We obviously haven't seen the last of her yet. There were a few unsubtle hints that her story's end hasn't been told just yet.

To be honest, I expect the BBC high-ups were sold on it being in 3-D and don't really care what happens in it...

That's probably true.

Oh and perhaps I should apologise for continuous use of the word fanwank, but before I leave that subject, will leave you with a word that just came into my head.....fanwankaganza.

[Andrew Curnow]

Didn't Professor Chronotis say that older Time Lords get confused over their tenses? Maybe the full line, cut for timing reasons only and doubtless available as a DVD extra coming soon, ran "He is or was or will be the one who breaks the promise." There, that's cleared that up!

Not knowing anything about it yet, I'm still hopeful we might not be 'dragged back into the Time War' (to coin a phrase) but I guess if the brief was 'epic' it would be an easy target...?

[Perry Vale]

I share those hopes too, Andrew, but still expect it might be the case.

Ok, can we speculate a bit further then, without any spoilers or extra knowledge.

Let's say that Hurt's Doctor is from the Time War for discussion's sake. What do people think he did in the Time War, and what his "crime" is? He couldn't have started the war, we know the Timelords did this (or the Daleks, for balance). He couldn't have ended it, The Doctor did this. He's stated so.

So what could Hurt be responsible for, or guilty of?

[Andrew Curnow]

Interesting, do you have any thoughts as to what that could turn out to be? The Silence themselves, I suppose? We obviously haven't seen the last of her yet. There were a few unsubtle hints that her story's end hasn't been told just yet.

No ideas really, I just keep expecting some kind of 'flashback' to a scene from 'Library' intercut with a new shot of a Silent looking at what's going on. I'm not for one minute claiming that Moffat had them in mind when he titled his season 4 episode, but I'm certain he's wily enough to tie it all back in after the fact. Although, that said, I'm not sure now whether we've seen the last of the Silents (Silence?) or not? But I would love it if somehow the original story could be in a sense turned on its head in some way by revealing that the Silence were there all along...

Interesting, though, when you say about 'unsubtle hints' - I've heard it suggested that with the Doctor actively kissing River for the first time, and with it being (in The Name of the Doctor) a 'post-death appearance' that says goodbye to the Doctor, this may be the last we see of her. I'm not a fan, I'm afraid, so would be pleased if that was the case. But I suspect she'll be back.

[Perry Vale]

Interesting, though, when you say about 'unsubtle hints' - I've heard it suggested that with the Doctor actively kissing River for the first time, and with it being (in The Name of the Doctor) a 'post-death appearance' that says goodbye to the Doctor, this may be the last we see of her. I'm not a fan, I'm afraid, so would be pleased if that was the case. But I suspect she'll be back.

Actually I've just rewatched the scene again, and I suppose it is more ambiguous than I thought. Just lines like "Until the next time" and the mention that she's still psychically linked to Clara suggest more, but I could be reading too much into it.

Can I just add while I'm here, it's the first rewatch I've done of TNotD since broadcast, and I still find it thoroughly, thoroughly brilliant!

[Andrew Curnow]

...can we speculate a bit further then, without any spoilers or extra knowledge... So what could Hurt be responsible for, or guilty of?

Now that is tricky - you're right about the Doctor definitely having said he ended it, and for that matter the Time Lords say as much in TEOTime (although I suppose to be pedantic, they would probably call him the Doctor anyway wouldn't they, Hurt or Eccleston or McGann). And yet, to reveal yet another 'something bad' for which the Doctor was responsible, which was somehow worse than the mutual destruction of all Time Lords & Daleks (well, supposedly) would seem a bit of a tall order.

It seems unlikely that Moffat is that keen on digging up more detail, or fleshing out other people's stuff, but putting that aside, isn't there a line in TEOTime about "the Doctor has the moment" which is kind of left floating? Perhaps the Hurt Doctor was responsible for the impregnable (unless you're Dalek Caan, but let's ignore that too) 'timelock' around the Time War - which may perhaps suggest that in a sense the War is always happening within that sealed zone, even though to the outside 'linear' universe, it has ended. Maybe he has condemned the Time Lords within the timelock to live the war again and again and again for ever...?

Or maybe he chucked away Fury from the Deep and Marco Polo, who knows!

[Perry Vale]

And yet, to reveal yet another 'something bad' for which the Doctor was responsible, which was somehow worse than the mutual destruction of all Time Lords & Daleks (well, supposedly) would seem a bit of a tall order.

And again that's something mentioned by TGI in 'The Name Of'. Paraphrasing, Trenzelor is the scene of a great attrocity, killing billions, but NOT as bad as the Time War (which the TGI seems to infer is as I'm saying, the Doctor's fault). I can't remember that bit about "the moment" right now, but it sounds interesting.

Or maybe he chucked away Fury from the Deep and Marco Polo, who knows!

Although if you listen to some people, he'll be announcing that he's found them in a post-50th-credits to camera filmed insert.

[Jon Masters]

For what its worth, I don't think John Hurt is anything to do with the Time War.

However, I'm also not sure about him being a future Doctor. It's one thing to know that your tomb ends up on Trenzalore, its a much bigger thing to know what the John Hurt Doctor has done (and from what I remember from tNotD the 11th seems to know an awful lot about his actions).

Given how Moffat has made such a big thing about how bad it is if the Doctor knows his future (like all the "Spoilers" stuff, and how angry he is in Angels Take Manhattan) I'd be very surprised if he throws that all away for the Special. (although, now I write that down, since when has the Moff NOT abandoned continuity for the sake of spectacle...)

[Perry Vale]

It's a fair point about the obsessive use of "Spoilers" through Smith's era, although this is perhaps to suit the unfolding story of River in particular. Smith's Doctor has also often mentioned how time happens for him in a jumbled up order, and not in a linear fashion as it does for everyone else. I don't see how Hurt being a future Doctor (and 11 knowing what he has/will do/done/whatever) can seem to be dismissed so easily in discussion terms. Although he may well not be!

[Mike Saville]

I think you're way off the mark with 'selling the time war to execs for the 50th'- I'm sure they'll see it as a brilliant idea. Time Wars are much better than Star Wars after all. However much you don't want to see or hear of it again, it's a big thing. Potentially epic. They may not understand Whovians, but they have a good idea of what the rest of the viewing public want to see on a 50th anniversary.

They've also been telegraphing the Time War Doctor too in the recent broadcast episodes, so it would make sense it's John Hurt.

Who did he hurt? From Dalek-
The Doctor: Well they're never gonna *come*! Your race is dead! You all burned, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race, wiped out in one second.
Dalek: You lie!
The Doctor: I watched it happen. I *made* it happen!
Dalek: You destroyed us?
The Doctor: [the Doctor walks away from the Dalek] I had no other choice.
Dalek: And what of the Time Lords?
The Doctor: [pause] Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

If millions died as a direct result of The Doctor's actions, and yet the Daleks survived, then I'm sure he'd see that as somewhat shameful- enough to distance himself from.

I like it. Means I can hope stupidly for a McGann appearance too.

[Perry Vale]

I think you're way off the mark with 'selling the time war to execs for the 50th'- I'm sure they'll see it as a brilliant idea. Time Wars are much better than Star Wars after all. However much you don't want to see or hear of it again, it's a big thing. Potentially epic. They may not understand Whovians, but they have a good idea of what the rest of the viewing public want to see on a 50th anniversary.

You're probably right, but I still don't agree. Possibly because of my personal preferences, but perhaps not. If I was trying to convince someone who doesn't normally watch the show to tune in, I'd hate to have to preface the plot with "Well there was this Time War that happened offscreen...". I don't agree that a Time War is better than Star Wars, I think it would be unneccessarily complicated for the general viewer. Having said that, Moffat does like the complicated!

I'd like the special to be a jumping on point for new viewers, and not overly laden with continuity. The TVM was spoiled, in many people's opinion, with the crowbarred in continuity of having to have the old Doctor mooch around for half an hour at the start of it. Celebrating 50 years, I rather it focussed on either the show's origins, or ending (somehow connected to his death/tomb and setting up a new regeneration cycle). Again, justy my personal preference.

I do trust Moffat enough to actually deliver a great story that does involve the Time War in some way*, as long as the whole thing isn't just being used to 'fill in a gap' and show a missing regeneration between McGann and somebody else.

They've also been telegraphing the Time War Doctor too in the recent broadcast episodes, so it would make sense it's John Hurt.

Have they? I can honestly say that I haven't noticed. And I haven't noticed because there's no longer any need to telegraph it in, the Time War was heavily featured onscreen already in The End Of Time. There would be no point in dropping in references now, to make sense of a forthcoming special, because most new viewers of the special that it would be needed for, would not be watching S7 anyway. But as you have noticed it, I guess you're hitting the nail on the head, so to speak.

Who did he hurt? From Dalek-
The Doctor: Well they're never gonna *come*! Your race is dead! You all burned, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race, wiped out in one second.
Dalek: You lie!
The Doctor: I watched it happen. I *made* it happen!
Dalek: You destroyed us?
The Doctor: [the Doctor walks away from the Dalek] I had no other choice.
Dalek: And what of the Time Lords?
The Doctor: [pause] Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

And this is why a potential Hurt's Doctor killed everyone in the Time War story just doesn't appeal to me. Eccleston has already stated that HE did it. The Doctor. The Doctor did it. Add to that, Tennant's Doctor repeated it at the end of TEoT, sending the Time Lords back to the endless Time War for ever more. If the reveal is that the bad thing that Hurt did was effectively the same thing we know the last two Doctors have already done, what's the surprise?

Basically I don't want a Time War story because we already know the ending. It's the same reason I've never been able to enjoy Revenge Of The Sith, because I always knew what the ending was going to be.

*Ok, here we go. Hurt's Doctor is the 13th Dotor. He breaks the laws of time to bring River Song back to life, because he just can't say goodbye to her. Billions die as a result. Hurt hides himself IN the Time War, to hide from other incarnations of The Doctor, who he knows may try to stop him.

[Dirk Gently]

The Doctor: [pause] Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

Emphasis is mine.

Has anyone given this statement any more thought, 'the LAST great time war', meaning there were others before the last one.
May be the Hurt Doctor is some kind of 8th Doctor+, where he was given an extra regeneration/partial regeneration to complete a mission for the Timelords after being mortally wounded as the 8th. But his mission in a previous Time War caused the last great Time War which then caused the Doctor to regen. in to the 9th?

Just something to think on. It's convoluted enough for Moffat's liking.

[Rob McCow]

Has anyone suggested he might be the Peter Cushing Doctor yet? Travelling with a young Wilf?

Knowing Moffatt it'll probably be a huge and unexplained cop-out that they had to do because they didn't have enough money for his original idea.

We know the Daleks are in it and the Pre-Victory ones at that, so perhaps these are from the Time War?

[Darren]

I'm assuming that he is an amalgamation of the Eighth and Ninth Doctor's guilt. Or he could be pre- First Doctor when he was a bit of a sod.

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Personally I would like to get through the entire episode with out hearing the words 'Time War', could I get that lucky?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

It's a Moffat story ... so it'll be all about River Song surely! Again.

[Stuart Wallis]

If you view going deaf on the night of the 22nd at all lucky...