Rate and Discuss: Dark Water

[SiHart]

What if death was not the end? Who is Missy? How are the Cybermen involved?

What did you think of Dark Water?

[Andrew Curnow]

Gosh, some stories divide opinion, this one (so far) seems to have generated no opinion at all...


...and I have to say, that seems somehow rather appropriate. I think it's one where I'll definitely need to see how next week plays out before 'calling it'. Certainly, I enjoyed tonight's episode, Peter C in particular was very good and although it turned out to be a sort of fake, the lava sequence was very dramatic.

The Missy reveal was (for me at least) unexpected. The Cybermen we knew were going to be in it... I have to say, the 'homage' scene of them marching down the steps didn't look all that good (IMHO) because we needed to see a lot more of them (Missy's comment that the dead outnumber the living is fine, but we probably ought to have seen that). The 'plot' as far as it goes is OK I suppose (although I'm waiting for a reason as to why today happens to be the day that the invasion begins - because the Doctor's turned up, or just one of those coincidences...?)

So-- a lot of dramatic set pieces that looked very good, which MAY end up justified by the plot by which MAY end up just being there to look good.

TO BE CONTINUED!

[Andrew Curnow]

Actually, one more random thought - I've never gone for this 'too scary for kids' thing, but I did wonder tonight whether the "DON'T CREMATE ME" (although a brilliant idea) wasn't crossing some sort of line. That's the sort of idea that could sort of seed in a child's mind maybe?

[Dino]

It got a lot right. I loved the reveal and the setting and everything it's just... There was a hell of a lot of talk.
I went to a BBC scriptwriters lecture and one of their key points was "Show not tell".
But the opposite is all we've had this series! Maybe next week we get to see where the money has gone?
We might even see someone on fire! That's always a good stunt.
So once again, a 7. Sorry. But it's been hilarious watching lesser Doctor Who forums meltdown over Missy!

[dalekkiller]

All I can say for now is that was one hell of a revelation at the end.

[Andrew Curnow]

"And the new Master could be a woman..."

[Leah Betts]

that snog that Missy planted on the Doctor.


This would be like Lex Luthor kissing Superman, or the Joker kissing Batman.


Looks like those scenes in Castrovalva with the Master and Adders now take on a whole new meaning.


It didn't help that M. Waterhouse chose that time to get a massive erection that was plainly visible to the camera.


And those remarks on rec.arts.drwho about the Master taking over Nyssa instead of Tremas suddenly have become much more plausible.

[Martin Curnow]

Well, it was a surprise; a great cliffhanger and unexpected reveal but 12 hours later Missy being the Master just seems wrong. Maybe we'll get some explanation next week for how it has happened. In the meantime, I have a hard time seeing this as the same character portrayed by the late, great Roger Delgado.

[chalkie]

Aaaaaaagh! :the state of my brain until next week

[Nyder]

I thought Missy was going to be The Rani! I too felt uncomfortable with the "Cremation" scene - for someone who has just cremated a loved one, I'm not sure they would have wanted to have witnessed that. Capaldi & Coleman were terrific in this, and Chris A. has pitched his part perfectly. It's a pity we all got to know about the Cybermen beforehand. The moment when those doors closed to reveal the Cyber eye logo would have been a great moment!


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[egdcltd]

It's a pity we all got to know about the Cybermen beforehand. The moment when those doors closed to reveal the Cyber eye logo would have been a great moment!

It was a great moment! I now skip the "Next Time" trailers because they give away too much (like the Cybermen in the alternate universe), and I'd managed to avoid any spoilers regarding the Cybermen at all, and therefore didn't know they were in the episode, so having those lift doors close like that just after the Doctor says he is missing something obvious worked perfectly. It also makes you think back on earlier possible clees, like the watch disappearing in the dark water.

[SiHart]

There's something entirely brilliant about the Cybermen exploiting the dead of Earth. It's what they should have done years ago- the ultimate Cyber-plan, convert the dead, harvest the bodies. Why has no-one thought of this before- it makes perfect, logical sense. I liked the little clues throughout- the logo for 3W being the teardrop eye etc- lovely stuff.

So it's The Master then. Well, well, well. For a moment I thought Susan, then maybe Romana, but no, his oldest, archest enemy... now a woman.... well there's allsorts of possibilities for the show now, isn't there?

[Perry Vale]

Keeping with the theme that's been developed throughout the series, that was very disappointing.

Danny Pink's demise was predictable, I felt, from the opening moments, and I'm pretty sure I can see where his story will go next week. Chris Addison wasn't as impressive as I thought he'd be, from his brief earlier appearance.

I'm not sure if I missed some important dialogue during the rush of events on first viewing, but quite a bit of it didn't make too much sense to me. I didn't 'buy' Clara's actions towards the start of it, and couldn't stop myself from thinking why the Tardis keys were important, can't the Doctor simply click his fingers to open it?

And after it finished, whilst absorbing everything I'd seen, I suddenly realised I have no real idea what next week's "threat" actually is.

On the plus side, the Missy reveal worked very well, and I'm surprised I didn't see it coming. I have no problems with the Master becoming a woman.

So next week has really got it's work cut out for it, to win me over finally for this series.

The Cybermen we knew were going to be in it...

I didn't know.

Oh, just one more thing, Don't Cremate Me is four words.

[Andrew Curnow]

why the Tardis keys were important, can't the Doctor simply click his fingers to open it?

Must admit, that crossed my mind too. I also wondered whether in fact Clara realised that the Doctor kept a spare key inside a cubbyhole above the P.

Actually, not that it really matters, but why keep your spare keys inside anyway? Assuming the idea is protection against being locked out, then surely they're on the wrong side of the door!!

If somebody has told me, I think I would have objected to the idea of a female Master, but actually it worked very well - maybe not the old series version, but certainly there's a lot of similarity with the John Simms version, in terms of familiarity with the Doctor & being mad as a fruitcake!!

[Si Hunt]

Surely Don't Cremate Me is three words, few people would argue that "Don't" is a word derived from two others.

I really loved that. The best thing for me was that for once we saw the Doctor and his companion setting off in the TARDIS and could follow the adventure along with them - it wasn't deviously complicated or baffling, there was no memory wipes or flash forwards, just the two of them exploring so you could try and work it out.

Michelle Gomez was ace - no line wasted, she comes over as iconic looking, utterly bonkers and brilliant. I'm still not quite sure about the Cyber plan though - once upon a time, Cybermen were humans with their emotions removed. Now it seems that they are robots who have "minds" added, albeit with removed emotions. Why do they need human minds? You might as well keep them as just robots. I just can't see what a mind, with emotion and personality and imagination removed, would add. What's left?

As much as I enjoyed following along with the surprises, I do think a couple of them were blown beforehand and the episode would have been so much better not knowing them. They probably couldn't help the Cybermen being given away when they filmed in public but imagine the impact of Danny Pink's death if we hadn't been teased all season with the notion of dead people being saved?

Great stuff, and I enjoyed it all the way through.

Si.

[Paul Clement]

I think you'll find many would argue that don't is actually two words. However, almost as many would argue the other way.

[Andrew Curnow]

To be fair "3 or 4 W" would be a rotten name for an organisation...

[Si Hunt]

Don't is a contraction of Do Not. Don't is a word made from contracting two other words, not two words itself. Two words have a space between, that's what makes them two words. I don't see a space in Don't.

Si.

[Darren]

1 out of 10

I hated it. Very dull. Nonsense at the beginning, both the Doctor and Clara have opened the TARDIS doors with a click of their fingers. Poor, overacting from Michelle Gomez and Chiris Addison was infuriating.
Some very poor taste humour about organ donation and Steve Jobs.

[Perry Vale]

I think you'll find many would argue that don't is actually two words. However, almost as many would argue the other way.

Exactly. And as a writer, asking your audience to guess the three words, building up it's importance, I felt this was cheating.

Good job it translates to three words in every available language in the universe, too...

[dalekkiller]

An interesting aside I used to go on to this alternative guide to Doctor Who written by a bloke called Charles Daniels basically it rewrote stories adding lots of sex and dirty humour titles like the sexual toymaker the mind shagger and sexwarp give a good clue as to the tone. Anyhow in an 'unmade' story from the 1980s in which the bastard had a sex change and became the bitch. I hope that Moffatt did not get the idea of having the master became missy from that deranged idea.

[Alex]

Hmm, I was a bit disappointed by that, it started off well, and the volcano / lava scene was lovely stuff (though I'd guessed the Doctor was on to Clara from the get go), but once they arrived at the Cyber HQ it slowed down to a snail's pace which was a bit frustrating. There were some nice moments (the skeletons movement in the water, Chris Addison's creepy performance, Missy in general) but way too much dialogue / exposition, and if it hadn't have been for the big reveal as to who Missy was (which I didn't see coming, shamefully) I'd have rated it far lower. Though it gets a 7/10 due to the aforementioned highlights.

Next week's has a hell of a lot to do to satisfy after a somewhat patchy series, but I'm cautiously hopeful it will be enjoyable. But so far this has been the worst year since Tennant's Specials for me, which is all a bit of a shame as I really do like Capaldi.

Random hopes / speculation: Clara sacrifices herself so that Danny can live (and I know, she needs to give birth to their child somehow, but, erm, well, dagnammit I still want it to happen); Michelle Gomez is still the Master / Mistress at the end of the episode; The Cybermen are actually menacing and threatening again for the first time in ages.

[Leah Betts]

I agree about the religious themes but, since they don't want to offend the American market - or even most of the people in the UK who consider themselves nominally religious (even if only Christmas and Easter), It's understandable.
Remember that in the Daemons they couldn't used the correct phrase "horned god" to describe the Devil because it was Saturday teatime.

[MacNimon]

I'm giving this a 7 for the moment, simply till I see how things play out. I really enjoyed the episode, though...especially the scene at the volcano. I enjoyed the generally slower pace of the story, and the gradual reveal of who the villains were. I thought that the Doctor would have twigged a little bit quicker than he actually did, though! It's too bad that the appearance of the Cybermen had been publicised, if they had managed to keep that secret this episode would have been even more effective. Unfortunately, given the filming in public at St Pauls, that was never going to be an option...

As for Missy being the Master...that's certainly a biggie, isn't it (even though I had a feeling that's who it would be)...it'll certainly have an impact further down the line. When Capaldi finally leaves the show, that old chestnut about the next Doctor being a woman may not only be speculation now that a precedent has been set.

[Rob McCow]

I've given it a 9 - on reflection, the 'Don't cremate me' line was misjudged. We've had far worse things in Torchwood* but for a family drama, I can see that being really distressing for younger family members. It's not safe/scary, it's out-and-out nasty.

Apart from that though, it was fun, scary and dramatic. It's building up to be a very RTD-style season finale, a bit like The End of Time but a lot, lot better.




*There are always worse things in Torchwood!