Rate and Discuss: Death in Heaven

[SiHart]

Unfortunately the champagne didn't affect my critical faculties in quite the same way

[dalekkiller]

Her's some reviews from around the web

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...r-capaldi.html

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-ra...eath-in-heaven

http://news.google.com/news/url?sr=1...arating-finale

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2014/11/08/doct...heaven-review/

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-w...-heaven-review

[Lissa]

There was a moment when Missy dropped the act and gave someone a look of pure evil. In that instant (and no other) I could actually believe this was the same being as had been played by Roger Delgado.

The whole episode was a demonstration of what happens when the script is written by the highest authority. Excellent set pieces, some very funny dialogue, a complete lack of logic and explanation. It was like a terrible coach trip around a very beautify part of the world. Bumpy roads, awful commentary, broken toilets, heavy traffic but views that almost (but don't quite) make up for it all. Someone needs to challenge Moffat and make him think about the logic of his scripts rather than just whiz-bang high spots and no transitions.

[Mike Saville]

There was a moment when Missy dropped the act and gave someone a look of pure evil. In that instant (and no other) I could actually believe this was the same being as had been played by Roger Delgado.

The whole episode was a demonstration of what happens when the script is written by the highest authority. Excellent set pieces, some very funny dialogue, a complete lack of logic and explanation. It was like a terrible coach trip around a very beautify part of the world. Bumpy roads, awful commentary, broken toilets, heavy traffic but views that almost (but don't quite) make up for it all. Someone needs to challenge Moffat and make him think about the logic of his scripts rather than just whiz-bang high spots and no transitions.

Exactly how I saw it. Delgado to me was the Master. There is a huge difference between vaudevillian and pantomime, and Delgado walked that line with aplomb. Ainley slipped into panto over time, but to be fair to him it wasn't a golden era, was it? Simm was OTT- he played 'the voices in the head' psychopath well, and I can see why they wanted to give the role more depth, but it was totally contrary to the suave sophistication. The Master originally was what the clinical profession would call a nutter- but one who projects total control of his sanity. An evil genius. That disappeared with Simm, and it hasn't manifested with Missy either. As Lissa says, there was a flash of it (as she's escaping her bonds for example), but it's not a portrayal I can invest much effort in.

[Mike Saville]

Thirded. I swore I wasn't going to watch the finale but since it was on the telly in the background I watched about 15 mins then immediately lost interest and turned the TV off!
The female "Master" is just utter bollocks anyway but Michelle Gomez just camped it up so much it was an utter ruination of a once classic villain.
I understand there was some garbage about Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart being a Cyberman now???? WHY????!!!! What the frelling hell is Moffatt doing to nu Who these days? I simply cannot believe this comes from the same mind as Name,Night,Day and Time of the Doctor last year. In the space of a year we've gone from brilliantly written Who to utter utter tripe! (Christ, even Twin Dilemma was more coherent than Moffatts latest offerings). The sooner Moffatt is shown the door the better in my view.
Regards
Diddy

You reviewed it without watching? Do you also write to Radio Two to complain about Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand without listening too?

Your should be tied to a chair and made to watch it on loop until coherency seeps from your pores. While dressed as Mary Poppins.

[Diddy Doc]

You reviewed it without watching? Do you also write to Radio Two to complain about Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand without listening too?

Your should be tied to a chair and made to watch it on loop until coherency seeps from your pores. While dressed as Mary Poppins.

Errrr I DID watch it, admittedly not all of it, but as much as I could stomach before my utter disdain and apathy for such shoddy scripting and OTT acting (mainly from Michelle - camper than a site full of tents - Gomez) could bear. I'd rather watch Time Flight Twin Dilemma and Time and the Rani on a loop than the convoluted garbage that aired on Saturday!!
Regards
Diddy

[Rob McCow]

Fair play to anyone who turns off something they're not enjoying, I suppose! At least it avoids the whole "If you don't like it why are you still watching it" argument.

[Diddy Doc]

Fair play to anyone who turns off something they're not enjoying, I suppose! At least it avoids the whole "If you don't like it why are you still watching it" argument.

Cheers. The really sad thing to me is that (as Mike has previously mentioned) as a lifelong die hard fan (ask Mike!) who's stuck with Who in good times and dire timesover 40 years this is the first time ever I've consciously given up on watching Dr Who. I'm sure I'll come back to it in time but not until Moffatt leaves and the writing and acting improves sadly.
Regards
Diddy

[FlyingBeastie]

The show is *back*. Best series since the 4th (as in 2008 4th), and, in my opinion, best two-parter since Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. It's like the train-wreck that was the Smith era has been wiped from existence (in the form of Osgood).

Moffat has finally earned his paycheck, 3 whole years later.

10 out of 10.

[Paul Clement]

I rather enjoyed it, which considering how much I didn't like the first episode of this two parter was a pleasant surprise.

[MacNimon]

I enjoyed that! Although it was certainly a bit of a let-down after last weeks great opening installment...that just seems to be par for the course though, with these big season finales, doesn't it?

There were plenty of great ideas in there, but how they were presented was a bit underwhelming and unsatisfying. I enjoyed seeing the Cybermen rising out of the ground, but felt that the scene wasn't as creepy as it could have been...a bit of a missed opportunity there. However, I loved the scene with the Cybermen attacking the plane. Also loved the Chaplet Funeral Home, some great lines of dialogue (the "He's on the payroll/How much?" sequence and the Doctors "I'm an idiot with a box" speech). I wasn't totally convinced by the Clara being the Doctor sequence, although I liked the idea...it perhaps should have been better written/directed to be more convincing?

Danny becoming a Cyberman didn't have the emotional impact that they'd obviously hoped for. I quite liked the character, he'd grown on me over the course of the series but he always felt like a plot device...you always knew that his character was going somewhere, but not enough effort had been put into developing the character in earlier episodes to really care. Unlike Mickey, who really grew as a 'boyfriend' character way back in Series 1 & 2.

Perhaps the most disappointing thing about the episode was the lack of explanation about The Master/Missy. However, I don't think we've seen the last of her (given that blue glow when she was supposedly disintegrated) and hopefully her change of gender will be looked at in more detail in future storylines. As long as it isn't just left as it is, with no comment made on the fact in future...if that was the case, then it would feel as if it was just shoehorned in to fit a PC agenda for a female Doctor somewhere down the line rather than it having any dramatic effect...I can see Missy becoming a semi-regular recurring villain, though. I thought Michelle Gomez did a pretty decent job giving us a female version of John Simm's Master...unfortunately, I was never that keen on Simm's OTT Master in the first place, and for just the same reasons am not particularly enamored with Gomez version. Just too OTT and panto for my tastes. Having said that, I'd like to see the character return (hopefully just toned down a bit...more sleekit, cunning and nasty, less OTT)

And as for that Brig Cyberman scene...it was probably one which sounded like a great idea, and a nice nod to a popular character (it worked in that respect). The problem is though, that once something like this is filmed and shown, it becomes canon and people (particularly those who don't like it) won't allow us to forget it...and now we apparently have a CyberBrig flying around somewhere in the Whoniverse...not exactly what Moffat would have had in mind when he wrote the scene, I'm sure! It's one of those scenes which should really have just been a DVD extra, imo.

I'll give this episode a 6/10 just because of the missed opportunities. 7/10 for the full story. It was still fun, all the same.

[Logo Polish]

Perhaps the most disappointing thing about the episode was the lack of explanation about The Master/Missy. However, I don't think we've seen the last of her (given that blue glow when she was supposedly disintegrated) and hopefully her change of gender will be looked at in more detail in future storylines. As long as it isn't just left as it is, with no comment made on the fact in future...if that was the case, then it would feel as if it was just shoehorned in to fit a PC agenda for a female Doctor somewhere down the line rather than it having any dramatic effect...

I'm assuming that when Osgood said she thought she was the Master regenerated into a woman, and the Doctor congratulated her on getting it right, that that was supposed to be the basic explanation. Maybe they might go into it more in future, but the implication seemed to be that it was just a regeneration.

[Richard Brinck-Johnsen]

Whilst I think Nick C would've found the Cyber Brig amusing, I wouldn't have wanted to actually see him self-destruct in the sky along with Danny and the other Cybermen but I think we can take it as read that that's what happened.
Introducing the Cyber Brig as a new recurring character *would* be in poor taste.

[dalekkiller]

I'm assuming that when Osgood said she thought she was the Master regenerated into a woman, and the Doctor congratulated her on getting it right, that that was supposed to be the basic explanation. Maybe they might go into it more in future, but the implication seemed to be that it was just a regeneration.

Which now gives the media every incentive to say will the next doctor be female?

[Perry Vale]

No change there, then.

[Si Hunt]

It's funny how people can accept two totally different incarnations of the Doctor, but can't get over the fact that the new regenerations of the Master are not the same as Roger Delgado. Especially given that since then the Master has decayed into a husk, endured 1000 years of drums beating in his head and had to become an alien snake creature to survive.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

What happened to him at the end of The End of Time at the end of the end of?

I'll tell you what, he vanished like a forgotten plot strand in a 15th re-draft. So he could have been doing anything in that time. Here's another theory for you - perhaps the woman we saw at the beginning, middle and end of The End of Time that was supposed to be the Doctor's Mum wasn't really The Doctor's Mum at all. She was a future incarnation of The Master.

This could explain how Galifrey escaped the Time Lock and got lost in Amy's Crack. The Master went back in time to make sure events ran to a new course. The present-day John Simm Master, seeing his future, promptly ate 15 battery farmed chickens and all those hormones and additives pumping through his system triggered another regeneration... one that felt a little bit different this time.

Why should you believe this theory? You shouldn't. But please feel free to come up with your own ideas!

[Mike Saville]

It's funny how people can accept two totally different incarnations of the Doctor, but can't get over the fact that the new regenerations of the Master are not the same as Roger Delgado. Especially given that since then the Master has decayed into a husk, endured 1000 years of drums beating in his head and had to become an alien snake creature to survive.
Si.

I have no problem with the Master being a woman. None at all. I even agreed that the Master would not let gender identity prevent his nefarious acts in a previous reply. If he had no issue putting his conscious mind into Morphant, he would have no issue with a female body. A female Master could work very well in fact, if the narrative is well written and the acting doesn't belong on the stage of every secondary rep theatre across the Christmas season.

I don't mind if the Master, or even the Doctor for that matter, is black, white, female, transgender, disabled, French (yes, even French) or what. But to say one does not want the Master or Doctor to regenerate into a wicked stepmother does not make one a homophobe.

Doctor Who is and always has been a very simplistic show with quite simple stories. If we were lucky we'd get clever theological allegory or an underlying political commentary, and the villains were part of the shorthand in that storytelling. The Daleks were the Nazis in the pre Davros stories, the Rani the remorseless vivisectionist, and the Master was a Svengali. assuming a more Machiavellian role (to crash two fictional stereotypes into one another) of behind the scenes manipulation and smoke and mirrors.

The recent story certainly fits that. The Mistress is no different than Rev Magister, Mr Seta co. In that context The Mistress is a great alter ego on paper. As was Mister Saxon.

But if, in deciding to forego the simplicity of the past and introduce a deeper more rounded and more broadly defined Master for a more sophisticated age, I add that into a big mixing pot with 1000 years of beating drums, alien snake creatures and decayed husks, the end of his race and the love hate seeking subconscious approval from his near sibling, I really, really, really don't expect the finished dish to be Melvyn Hayes as Mary Poppins somewhere off off off off broadway.

[Si Hunt]

Never said you had a problem with the Doctor being a woman Mike. Or that not wanting him to regenerate into a wicked stepmother made you a homophobe (however another of yours comments on the other hand...).

I was thinking more of

Delgado to me was the Master. There is a huge difference between vaudevillian and pantomime, and Delgado walked that line with aplomb.

And

The Master originally was what the clinical profession would call a nutter- but one who projects total control of his sanity. An evil genius.

I don't really see what Delgado was like, which people keeping going back to, has any bearing on what the Master is now. People don't look at Tom Baker's Doctor and say "The Doctor is first and foremost a grouchy old man..."

Si.

[Mike Saville]

Never said you had a problem with the Doctor being a woman Mike. Or that not wanting him to regenerate into a wicked stepmother made you a homophobe (however another of yours comments on the other hand...).

Si.

I know. I got the PM from admin. Despite the fact that I make no secret of my heteroflexibility, I live with my partner and her bisexual husband, have had a long term live in relationship with a wonderful TS lady (who incidentally would also have hated this incarnation of the Master). Not wanting an iconic character played like a camp queen does not make one a homophobe any more than not wanting Isreal to bomb Palestine makes you an antisemite.

The post you objected to- this one-

"It was a pantomime dame of a villain, camped up to a level that only people who are obsessed with Shirley Bassey, Judi Garland and Sue Pollard think women are actually like."
is not homophobic either, unless you yourself are suggesting that either all gay people are like that, or all people who like those things are gay.

The point being made is that there is a faux feminine role that appeal to a demographic, with showy gestures and a brashness that may appeal to the theatre luvvies in a lavish stage show, but on a small screen science fiction show it is very jarring for some of us. Small time actors admire it, quality actors transcend it when they switch medium. It is not a stage show, it's a television programme. However, I am tolerant of your opinions. That I don't like a portrayal you do on a thread that is about objective and critical discussion does not make me an evil hetero with a gay bashing agenda that must be reported to admin, so you're not the only one that feels slighted Si.

As for the Tom Baker reference. Not all of us think Tom Baker was the pinnacle of Doctor Who either. He was one of my least favourites and was pleased to see his early departure on Last Doctor Standing. By the end of his era it wasn't Tom Baker starring in Doctor Who, it was Tom Baker starring in The Tom Baker Show. But to your point, Hartnell was grouchy and sulky, but so was Troughton and certainly Pertwee. That was one of the defining brush strokes of the early Doctors. It is certainly evident in Colin and Sylv, and in Ecclescake. Grouchy, while not a constant, is not a trait confined to one or two incarnations.

[Si Hunt]

The post you objected to- this one-

"It was a pantomime dame of a villain, camped up to a level that only people who are obsessed with Shirley Bassey, Judi Garland and Sue Pollard think women are actually like."
is not homophobic either, unless you yourself are suggesting that either all gay people are like that, or all people who like those things are gay.

Nice try twisting it round on me! You were clearly having a dig at me when you put that, as I have posted numerous times about Su Pollard. The ragtag collection of gay stereotype likes (Bassey, Garland etc.) was very offensive I'm afraid. No idea about your living arrangements so I couldn't take this into account.

However, I am tolerant of your opinions. That I don't like a portrayal you do on a thread that is about objective and critical discussion does not make me an evil hetero with a gay bashing agenda that must be reported to admin,

Never used those words, so don't put them in my mouth please!

Si.

[Mike Saville]

Oh, for crying out loud!
I'm done. Bye.

[Si Hunt]

I'll settle for an apology and that can be the end of it.

Si.

[Mike Saville]

OK. Apology accepted.

[SiHart]

Ok guys, stop now. If you want to take this further, please do it by PM.

Thanks.