Rate and Discuss: The Zygon Inversion

[SiHart]

The Zygons have Clara, they've infiltrated UNIT and the Doctor's plane has seemingly been destroyed... where do we go from here?

What did you think of The Zygon Inversion?

[Stuart Wallis]

In the Night Garden!

[Alex]

Loved that, with an absolutely astonishing performance from Capaldi there, right throughout the episode but especially the ending. He might even be second to Matt in my favourites Doctor list if he keeps this up, the fickle creature that I am. I thought they tackled some very difficult and relevant problems incredibly well, and it's definitely an episode I look forward to rewatching again soon.

[Andrew Curnow]

Really enjoyed it. I guessed there's be two Osgood boxes... But not what they'd actually be.

[Leah Betts]

On the one hand, the Doctor hates the genocidal Sullivan's Gas. On the other hand, the Doctor, in The Macra Terror, genocides the native population of the planet Macros.

[Perry Vale]

I was half expecting the test card girl from Life on Mars to turn up at the beginning....

Slightly better than last week, but not much. The Doctor's american gameshow host accent was badly judged, imo, as was the five rounds rapid joke. The show is becoming one big joke.

And I'll never understand why you can show an airliner being downed by a MANPAD, but not a robot having it's head chopped off.

[Perry Vale]

As dull as Kate L-S gets, I'm sure we can at least look forward to the return of Dead-Cyberman-Brig very soon....

[Dino]

Nothing wrong with the fact Capaldi's Doctor can talk, and talk and talk.
The Doctor can do more! I found the speech overlong, and didn't like the ending.
If the last episode has even more talk than the entire series then I might even swear on this beautiful forum!
I never said "I want The Doctor to be The A-Team", but a bit more activity wouldn't be too tasking!
I'm even thinking "Is 'Warriors of the Deep' a better story than this, due to the activity that occurs in that story compared to the past two episodes?!"
Maybe the best way to watch these episodes later away from expectations of how this series turned out?
Not voted yet.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I as mediocre as I found part 1, was as excellent as I found part 2.

It's just so frustrating though - this would have made a superb and tight single-parter, but the first act really dragged.

I'm left with the feeling once again, as I have several times this season, just how superbly Capaldi is executing the role of the Doctor. What's kind of sad - if he follows form with Smith, Tennant etc, we're just at the half-way point of his tennure.

His whole speech about the boxes, and how they were a scale model of what war means was brilliant. In fact, he's pretty faultless throughout the episode - as was both Osgood and Kate.

[gabbie]

I really enjoyed this episode. For me, this Series has been much better than Series 8. Found Capaldi doing an amazing job in this episode. While I have not found him to be my fave Doctor, Series 9 has allowed him to grow into the role. Kudos To Twelve and the Two Osgoods!

[Stuart Wallis]

I wasn't in the right mood for watching this episode, so I'm not sure I can comment on it.

[Rob McCow]

The pacing of both episodes seemed to be a bit off. Perhaps they would work better watched as a single movie?

This was a good episode constructed around an absolutely magnificent scene of Capaldi strutting his stuff. The whole thing was worthwhile because of the war argument, but the episode would have been pretty lame without it.

Although the speech should definitely have ended "Is this war? Is this honour? Are these the weapons you would use??? TAyyyaeelll MEeeeehhhh!!!!"

[Jon Masters]

Worst episode so far this season - no real tension and far too many scenes of talking. Plot holes not just gaping but requiring us to believe that characters are truly stupid and Zygons technology works by magic. Capaldi tried his best but just came over as condescending bastard throughout.
And as I feared, changing the Zygons so much just kept making me feel pissed off - why not just invent a whole new alien race rather than screwing with a great old creation. Dropping in stupid lines about their new magical powers rubbed salt into the wounds.

Broton would be turning in his grave.

ETa Have just realised I've posted in the wrong thread ( stupid episode names) - all of the above refers to the first episode ( watched tonight) - not sure I'm in the best mood to watch the second half yet.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Yeah - I wasn't very impressed by the first episode Jon - but thought the conclusion was much more satisfying than expected. It's like all those Tennant two parters in reverse - which used to start strong, then have a cobbled-together conclusion.

[Si Hunt]

I found this a whole lot better than the opening episode, for one simple reason. The plot was reasonably linear; you joined the action and got carried along with it, so you could follow the story. It didn't start in the middle of the story, jump to a flash back, go back a scene and then show you the end or anything like that. It engaged a bit more. Cappers was very good in the Big Scene, even though I'm not usually a fan of stories which culminate in a big talky bit.

Still not sure I get the point of the whole "Zygon or human? Both!" thing though. When Osgood had a Zygon double, only the Zygon double changed. She didn't alter or anything like that! So they can't BOTH be part Zygon and part human. If it was the Zygon Osgood who Missy killed, then this one would be human. If it was the Human one she killed, this one is either Zygon or, if some kind of change has occurred, at the very most part human and part Zygon. In other words, as whichever one it is can't answer the question, it must therefore be the (originally) Zygon one that survived. or else she would just say she was the human one.

Unless either (i) it's the human one and she bonded emotionally so much with her "sister" that she is offended to admit it or (ii) Zygon's somehow 'infect' their body doubles turning them part-Zygon

Either way, I don't see why it's such a difficult question to answer.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

Isn't the point that she/they didn't want to answer the question, not that it was a hard one?

[Andrew Curnow]

Playing Devil's Advocate, Jon, hasn't DW always played fast & loose with what monsters can do? Dalek Invasion of Earth is the obvious first example, other than visually there is no similarity to the creatures seen in The Daleks.

[Jon Masters]

Playing Devil's Advocate, Jon, hasn't DW always played fast & loose with what monsters can do? Dalek Invasion of Earth is the obvious first example, other than visually there is no similarity to the creatures seen in The Daleks.

Agreed, but it would be difficult to have Daleks that only travel on metal invade London. The old Zygons would have worked perfectly well in the first episode as they were. And ( unless it's mentioned in Ep 2) I'm wondering where 20 million Zygons are getting their Skarasen milk from ( unless Aldi now stock it )

[Nyder]

I think Woolco used to stock it


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[Andrew Curnow]

Agreed, but it would be difficult to have Daleks that only travel on metal invade London. The old Zygons would have worked perfectly well in the first episode as they were. And ( unless it's mentioned in Ep 2) I'm wondering where 20 million Zygons are getting their Skarasen milk from ( unless Aldi now stock it )

Surely that's arguing that it's OK when needed in one story but not another? Granted I've only seen the episodes once, and haven't seen Terror of the Zygons in a long while, but I didn't really spot such huge differences between the creatures now as then.

[SiHart]

A Skarasan would have magnificent to behold.

[Stuart Wallis]

There's no answer to that!

I'm wondering where 20 million Zygons are getting their Skarasen milk from ( unless Aldi now stock it )

They're currently in a price war with Lidl. (Other supermarkets are available. Not that we care...)

[Jon Masters]

Surely that's arguing that it's OK when needed in one story but not another? Granted I've only seen the episodes once, and haven't seen Terror of the Zygons in a long while, but I didn't really spot such huge differences between the creatures now as then.

Maybe it's because TOTZ is one of my favourite old stories, but for a start
- old Zygons had a poisonous sting, not a Cyberman style zapper
- people killed by old Zygons didn't turn into sparking tumbleweed
- old Zygons couldn't read minds

I'll go off and grump somewhere else now

[Dino]

Maybe it's because TOTZ is one of my favourite old stories, but for a start
- old Zygons had a poisonous sting, not a Cyberman style zapper
- people killed by old Zygons didn't turn into sparking tumbleweed
- old Zygons couldn't read minds

I'll go off and grump somewhere else now

Not saw TOTZ for a while, but didn't the Zygons know when one of their own had been killed? Such as the one pretending to be Harry?
I seem to remember Broton being annoyed by this twiddling some controls for total destruction.

[Andrew Curnow]

Maybe it's because TOTZ is one of my favourite old stories, but for a start
- old Zygons had a poisonous sting, not a Cyberman style zapper
- people killed by old Zygons didn't turn into sparking tumbleweed
- old Zygons couldn't read minds

I guess we're all inclined to look for problems with a story we dislike, and forgive them with one we like. Consequently, mainly in the interests of debate, genuinely not to irritate Colonel Masters:

I didn't worry over the switch from sting to zapper, and would similarly not complain about the change from b&w negative to green skeleton for the Dalek exterminating effect back in the old days.

To be really picky, surely we can only say that Zygons in Terror didn't read minds. Dino's right about there being some kind of awareness I think, but even if not just because they didn't in the first story, there wasn't anything to say they couldn't.

On the other hand, I agree that the sparking tumbleweed was.... well, it was just weird frankly. I can imagine somebody saying at the Tone Meeting that they could do it, and it would look cool... but it was odd that nobody in the story commented on it. Just one character saying, "There's a lot of weed lying around here, Doc.... Euch!" would have made sense, rather than everybody just taking it as something perfectly normal.

Mind you, what this discussion has really achieved is that I want to go and watch Terror of the Zygons!!!