Rate and Discuss: Face the Raven

[Andrew Curnow]

So, what did we all think of episode 10...? [If you've not seen it you may want to avoid any and all and especially one spoiler before doing so, so be careful about reading on...]

[Andrew Curnow]

Last week it looked like a sub-Harry Potter bit of light fantasy to fill the 10th slot before an epic season finale. This week, it's turned out to be the Utopia of season 9.

Assuming that genuinely is the end of Clara then it's probably Moffat's most inspired bit of misdirection yet. Speaking personally anyway, I've never expected Clara to leave other than in the final episode of the season - and definitely it would be in an episode written by Moffat himself.

I knew Ashildr was coming back - I'm still slightly torn on the character, it seems to me to be written for somebody just a little older than Maisie Williams. That's not to say that she doesn't do a grand job of it, just that the scripting in her Highwayman episode and again tonight, don't really do her any favours.

And, although not quite the point of this discussion, next week's looks extremely bizarre!

[SiHart]

The problem is I don't quite believe we won't see Clara again. Steven Moffat's Who has so trivialised death that it doesn't feel like the end of her. I liked the episode a lot I think, but need a while to process it!

[Andrew Curnow]

Yes I know what you mean, Si - what with Rory, Amy, etc, it doesn't always feel like The End when somebody dies does it. Personally I think we've seen the last of the 'real' Clara, but not of Jenna - I wouldn't be at all surprised if another of the many Claras pops up over the next couple of episode (as in the recent DWM strip in fact) to save the Doctor.

I hope not, though - it would be nice for that to really be it, it was a shocking but very final ending for Clara yesterday, and maybe just maybe the Cardiff team have learned from Trial of a Time Lord's mistake, and won't bring Clara back at all after such a conclusive demise.

Another thought that occurred to me today, after mulling it over and also reading the DWM preview. Surely the original plan was for us not to know Clara was leaving in this one, so that it was a genuine OMG moment, like the Master in Utopia, or the regeneration in Stolen Earth. I reckon that Peter popping up on the Graham Norton show on Friday to reveal that she leaves in Face The Raven was because of some high-up at the BBC saying, "Never mind surprising 4 million, let's just try and entertain 6, get Capaldi on the chat show circuit and try and hype up Saturday's episode to get some more bums on seats!" (I'm confident that's exactly how they speak at the BBC, probably while chomping on gigantic cigars.)

[Martin Curnow]

I hope not, though - it would be nice for that to really be it, it was a shocking but very final ending for Clara yesterday, and maybe just maybe the Cardiff team have learned from Trial of a Time Lord's mistake, and won't bring Clara back at all after such a conclusive demise.

What Trial mistake? Are you on about the planned ending of the Doctor and Valeyard trapped in the Matrix being a more ending than carrot juice?

By the way - a cracking episode indeed.

[Andrew Curnow]

No, Mr Curnow, I meant when they killed off Peri at the end of episode eight.... Only for it to have been 'made up' in episode fourteen, and she was alive and well.

[Martin Curnow]

Oh yeah. D'oh me!!!

[Rob McCow]

I kind of liked what they did with that episode, but it took such a convoluted route to get there. Essentially the whole point of the episode was Clara accepting the death-lock and not realising that there was no way out of it. All the business with Eshielder (sp?) and the Magic Harry Potter Alley of Improbable Enemies was just fluff.

It was a real mistake to have one of the future Uber-hard Cybermen in the alley as well. I know there's a bit of mix and match with the monsters these days, but a single Cyberman should be enough to wipe out the lot of them. They should never have let it in! Not that it really matters - except that it does because it bugged the hell out of me.

Personally I think they could have set the murder mystery in the real world to much better effect.

That said, the image of the raven and the way it was played was absolutely superb. I really liked that.

It's so irritating too that we don't know if Clara is really dead or what. Oh well!

[Alex]

I've very mixed feelings about this one, and unfortunately some ****hole on another forum revealed that Clara would die in this episode, so it didn't come as the shock it should have. Indeed I'm sure I'd have rated it very differently had I not known, but as soon as she took the tattoo from Rigsy I guessed that's how she would buy the big one, and then the rest of the episode was drawn out nonsense as I waited for her to die.

It's a shame as the idea behind the episode was a strong one, but I'd have much preferred it if we'd seen the aliens in their normal forms throughout, rather than just brief glimpses, that way they could have structured the episode as a murder mystery where any one of the Doctor's many many enemies might have been behind it, and then the fact that it was all a trick to ensnare the Doctor by Ashildr would have come as more of a surprise.

Have to say I thought Coleman was particularly annoying this episode too, I'd grown to like her a bit more recently but thought her acting was poor here, and her death was poorly filmed and lacked impact as the Doctor was whisked away so quickly. Plus I'm not convinced that she won't be back somehow, in some form, too.

Hopefully the next two episodes will do something interesting with everything that's happened, but right now I'm pretty disappointed by the episode and can only rate it 5/10.

[Perry Vale]

Who was local knowledge? Guess I'm supposed to remember him? Was he is Flat Line?

Better than most of this season, but that's not saying much. Rather convoluted nonsense to get to a drawn out big emotional music slow motion finale, that was telegrammed 15 minutes earlier.

[Si Hunt]

A brilliant episode from start to finish. I love Doctor Who when it has the TARDIS arrive, unravel a mystery and develop the plot as you follow along. And a tattoo that counts down to your death - what a great idea! I thought everyone in this was good - Jovian Wade was convincing (although didn't he used to live in Bristol), Clara's foolishness and cocksure nature heartbreakingly lead to her doom and Peter Capaldi was excellent in dealing with the final moments. The plot was quite confusing, as Doctor Who often is these days, but I just about held onto it and I was not left dry-eyed by the end. The Raven was another good idea and brilliantly executed. It was a really awful death as well because (a) she knew it was coming and (b) It really hurt. You actually saw her cry out in pain, and then the sight of her lifeless face staring ahead while her body swayed in the air was just too much!

It was a great episode, it's just a shame it exists in a world where, rather than this being a great shock that they stick to, we have the Doctor actor going on a chat show and giving away what's going to happen a day before, and the Monthly Magazine printing photos of her in the series after this point. Why bother to put all this effort into the scripting, music, acting and execution if you're going to fictionally betray it before and after?

But for these 45 minutes I was gripped and moved. Finally!

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

Anyway, we've not touched on what is surely the most important issue of the night. Namely, doesn't Capaldi look so much better in that nice smart jacket!!

[Dirk Gently]

I'm with Si (Hunt) on this. I loved the episode. It was the best one this season for me. 9/10. I'll watch it again, but it'll only be to enjoy it again, not to get a sense of whether I liked it (which is what happened to last weeks episode).


Oh, and Andrew, you are so right. I'm loving the jacket/shirt combo & I fervently hope we've seen the back of that horrible hoody/spangley jumper combo (which I hate!).

[duncan]

I totally enjoyed this one too after not liking Maisie's previous two episodes.

However, I don't believe that Clara is dead as the first man killed ran. The guy in the glasses said "don't run". Then "why do they always run?" Clara didn't run.

A great episode that sets up the finale episodes nicely. 8/10 from me,

[Si Hunt]

Is it worth remembering there is a stasis booth nearby?

Si.

[Philipnet]

However, I don't believe that Clara is dead as the first man killed ran. The guy in the glasses said "don't run". Then "why do they always run?" Clara didn't run.

But she did run.

She ran into the street where the raven went *poof* through her stomach - and killed her.

[duncan]

She didn't run away from it. I just have this feeling, and I am probably wrong, that it didn't kill her.

[Antony Cox]

I enjoyed it generally, I just hope that Clara really is dead. Obviously I don't mean that as it sounds, just that the whole 'phoenix' thing gets on my nerves!

BTW - This episode suggests that we've seen Rigsy before but I don't remember him. Am I missing something?

[Leah Betts]

Apparently Capaldi is the only actor in 'Heaven Sent', which is about how the 12th Doctor teams up with Adric, Martha, Captain Jack, Neska and Cotton from 'The Mutants' to defeat Professor Zaroff.

[Rob McCow]

12th Doctor teams up with Adric, Martha, Captain Jack, Neska and Cotton from 'The Mutants' to defeat Professor Zaroff.

Best episode ever! Would also kill the show stone dead.

[Alex]

I enjoyed it generally, I just hope that Clara really is dead. Obviously I don't mean that as it sounds, just that the whole 'phoenix' thing gets on my nerves!

BTW - This episode suggests that we've seen Rigsy before but I don't remember him. Am I missing something?

He was in Flatline, but I didn't remember him either and only found out after my other half mentioned it.

[Antony Cox]

He was in Flatline, but I didn't remember him either and only found out after my other half mentioned it.

Ah, yes - thanks!

[Stuart Wallis]

I shall give this one an 8/10 because the prolonged buildup to the end prevented a 9, and because if the Cyberman couldn't take out the other aliens, the Sontaran would've. Doctor Who does Harry Potter, and why not?

[Jon Masters]

Haven't' seen it yet but given the names of the last 2 episodes I'd assumed that (a) they'll all be about Clara and (b) it might be linked the last season's finale

[Rob McCow]

Doctor Who does Harry Potter, and why not?

"One day Doctor, you'll be a powerful Time Lord!"

It was one aspect of Harry Potter at any rate. They could have easily done it so it didn't look quite so much like Diagon Alley (Grr, I hate that pun). Did anyone else think that when we caught the glimpse of the Sontaran that firstly, it was the non-Dan-Starkey Sontaran for the first time in years and secondly, it was a rather poorly stuck-on still image?