Rate And Discuss 3.2: The Shakespeare Code

[Pip Madeley]

The place to chat about episode 2 of series 3, The Shakespeare Code. Don't forget to rate it!

This thread will be unlocked after broadcast.

[Paul Clement]

Although I wasn't overkeen on Shakespeare the Chav that we got to see first of all, as the story progressed, the whole thing started to work much better for me.
The interplay between the Doctor and the Bard was quite enjoyable, with the 'I'll use that' moments being quite a plus to the dialogue.
The plot was pretty weak throughout, with the need to suspend your disbelief being a staple requirement of being able to enjoy the episode. This led onto the ending which didn't convinve me at all. I think this is going to be one of those episodes you need to make sure you don't think about too much to enjoy.
Despite it's faults, enjoy it I did. I'm still not convinced about Martha as a character, but it was certainly an improvement overall on the 'Smith and Jones' episode.

[Alex]

I really enjoyed that! Not that I know much about this new series, but the one episode I had concerns about was this one.

Tennant was excellent, and refreshingly non-ott this week, whilst I'm absolutely loving Martha, she's shaping up to be one of the best companions of all time imo, there's just something so appealing about her.

The plot was really great as well, funnily enough I only heard about Love's Labours Won (despite studying a huge amount of Shakespeare at uni...ahem...!) about a month ago, so I found it really fascinating that they based the plot around it. The three witches were delightfully OTT (I loved the crazed laughing at the end), and all in all it was almost a perfect episode in my opinion.

Only almost though..and here comes the one negative I have about this episode - I thought Dean Lennox Kelly was hideously miscast as Shakespeare. His voice was so flat and monotonous, and it basically knocks the episode down from a 10/10 to an 8/10 for me. When quoting Shakespeare he made it sound so dull and lifeless, and the rest of the time I was never convinced that he was the genius we know old Shakey to be. I just don't understand why he was cast, surely he's not that much of a 'name'.

But I don't want to harp on about this too much, because I thought it was really great as a whole! So yay yet again!

[Dirk Gently]

Initial instincts & reactions...

Oooo, I liked this one.
Magic/Science.
Rose would know!
Argh! Other side
EXPELIARMUS!

This was a really good episode, much better than last weeks. The houses looked right, even if the language wasnt. This was brilliant & to be honest I didnt see too much wrong with it.
The script worked well as did the action sequences. Not too many silly bits (running the wrong way aside) but all in all excellent. William Shakespeare was well realised as were the witches. This could have gone all ...ish but it did not & that is a very good thing.

9/10.

The Face of Boe next week!

[Larry]

I I thought Dean Lennox Kelly was hideously miscast as Shakespeare. His voice was so flat and monotonous, and it basically knocks the episode down from a 10/10 to an 8/10 for me. When quoting Shakespeare he made it sound so dull and lifeless, and the rest of the time I was never convinced that he was the genius we know old Shakey to be. I just don't understand why he was cast, surely he's not that much of a 'name'.

!

hmm i'm of he opposit opinion I thought Lennox Kelly, was actualy pretty good as as they have said on confidential there are no records of what Shakespear was like. But over all at the moment i'm giving it just 5/10 the effects were good but the over all plot a bit week I think this is one that certainly needs a second viewing as at the moment it;s nothing more than average.

[Si Hunt]

I've no idea what went on, but it was probably quite good.

Si.

[Martin Penny]

I thought it was very good! 9/10 from me.

I liked Lilith, and Superhans from Peep Show turning up.

[Jonno]

Well, I like period Earth settings, so this was always going to be a plus factor, and I thought it looked superb, with filiming in the Globe a real bonus. The way they made 50 extras look like 3,000 people was very clever!

How novel to actually have witches (of sorts) in Who - a first methinks? And if so, it's amazing it took so long! I also liked the idea of the Doctor having a heart attack and (temporarily) losing the use of one heart - again, something you'd think would have been explored before!

I had no problems with the realisation of Shakespeare - the tortured genius, the celeb of the day. Why not?! Nice to see that the racism issue wasn't ignored, though oddly no-one seemed to bat an eyelid at the modern clothes! At least Rose looked the part for The Unquiet Dead.

The bedroom scene was another highlight, and spoke volumes about the two characters. The death by drowning scene was quite strong, and cleverly realised (thanks to Confidential). The humourous use of Will's dialogue worked for me in exactly the way that the "not amused" gag didn't last year. I also loved the "You're barred/Bard" gag - not heard that one before!

Chuck in a good bit of eye candy of both genders, and it all adds up to a winner for me - 9/10. Cracking start to the series.

[Paul Clement]

I had no problems with the realisation of Shakespeare - the tortured genius, the celeb of the day

I had no problem with the characterisation, it was the dialogue he started off with which was poor.

[duncan]

I think we can stop having Rose rammed down our throats. The Doctor has a new companion now so can we move on? Oh, and less comedy moments such as the sketch where The Doctor needed to restart one of his hearts and last weeks expelling the radiation please!

On the whole, this was a very good episode and I have rated this as 8/10. A good story that was well performed by all involved. Martha is really growing on me now and is well written. The story was helped by the superb locations and costumes.

[Alex]

Superhans from Peep Show turning up

That made me smile too!

There was one brief acknowledgement of the clothing when Shakey first met Martha, but yeah it was a bit odd that no one else mentioned it. As the Doctor knew where they were going, they could have got kitted out first too.

I've just remembered the one other minor thing that confused - the Doc's explanation of the effect of time travel, and comparing it to Back to the Future. Surely the point with BTTF is that Marty changes time when his Mum falls for him, so has to put it right, whereas the Doc and Martha don't do anything which affects time in this ep...

Edit:

I think we can stop having Rose rammed down our throats. The Doctor has a new companion now so can we move on?

I don't mind that at all, and it was only a small moment. It seems to be setting up a bit of an unrequieted love thing for Martha, too.

[Dirk Gently]

I've just remembered the one other minor thing that confused - the Doc's explanation of the effect of time travel, and comparing it to Back to the Future. Surely the point with BTTF is that Marty changes time when his Mum falls for him, so has to put it right, whereas the Doc and Martha don't do anything which affects time in this ep...

I think that was the point, if the Doctor & Martha left then it would have been changed. Like in Pyramids of Mars when the Doctor shows Sarah Jane earth in 1980.

[Alex]

Ah, I see what you mean...But that means in all historical episodes the Doc and companion must know that they'll eventually save the day, or the present wouldn't be the way it is?

As much as I love them, the complexity (and pardoxes) of time travel stories often confuses me.

[Paul Clement]

Ah, I see what you mean...But that means in all historical episodes the Doc and companion must know that they'll eventually save the day, or the present wouldn't be the way it is?

As much as I love them, the complexity (and pardoxes) of time travel stories often confuses me.

No, they travel back from the accepted present day, but if they changed anything then the present day they would return to would have changed also.

[Andrew Curnow]

I seem to be on a bit of a roll so far with this season because, just like last week, I really enjoyed it. At some point between the end of "Doomsday" and Christmas last year I finally warmed to Tennant, and I'm really just loving this season so far. There's probably lots to fault, but for me it hit all the right buttons - nice mix of drama, fun, daftness, jolly dialogue, 'moments', convincing effects, a plot that unfolded and that one could follow, and all in all just really very nice indeed. I was even pleased to see Gareth Roberts interviewed on DWC - other than "Tragedy Day" I've enjoyed all his previous Who stories, so I'm glad I enjoyed this one too.

And, is this the first new season story where the sonic doesn't appear at all?

Zel was asleep, but I watched with Little Miss who also enjoyed it - she spotted there was no roof on the Globe, and I also explained about the Globe being a real place, and what Martha meant by being sectioned (Verity's educational remit coming to the fore there!); she enjoyed the witches, and thought the little Shakespeare doll was cute; she admired Mr Kelly's ability to go cross-eyed; and she laughed along with me at the various "you can have that" lines.

Sometimes it's just so good to be a fan of the best TV show!!

And, PS, next week's episode looks good too!!

[Matthew T]

I thought it was OK. I MUCH preferred last weeks. It was enjoyable of course, as always, but I was a little disappointed. I loved the ending, the CGI spectacle and the entrance of Queen Elizabeth. I didn't like the realisation of the two old witches, they looked like bad rubber masks! I voted 7 out of 10, but it was nearly a 6.

Next weeks looks excellent.

[Alex]

No, they travel back from the accepted present day, but if they changed anything then the present day they would return to would have changed also.

But they travelled back in time and were responsible for stopping the world from being destroyed, thus changing it. And surely they must have the knowledge that the world isn't destroyed in the present day, and thus that they must end up somehow always being successful.

Ow. My head hurts. I think I might be a bit too tired to understand this whole time travel malarky today.

[Si Hunt]

Where was the eye candy for me?

Si.

[Paul Clement]

But they travelled back in time and were responsible for stopping the world from being destroyed, thus changing it. And surely they must have the knowledge that the world isn't destroyed in the present day, and thus that they must end up somehow always being successful.

Ow. My head hurts. I think I might be a bit too tired to understand this whole time travel malarky today.

The fact that the present day exists stops being an immutable fact the moment they travel back in time. They could fail and find that the Earth was actually destroyed in the 16th Century when they attempt to return home.

[Dirk Gently]

Alex, just watch Pyramids of Mars again & then read Stephen Hawkins collected works.



It might not help you but it'll take your mind of The Shakespeare Code.

[Captain Tancredi]

About fifteen minutes in I was wondering why on earth I was watching this and whether there wasn't anything else on. Fortunately it pulled things together in the second half, but the mentions of Bedlam and the Black Death had me wondering whether anybody checks scripts for historical accuracy any more- and would it have killed Gareth Roberts to actually put the few lines from Love's Labours Won into something approximating to blank verse?

The Sycorax joke was a nice pay-off though.

Edit- have quickly checked Wikipedia and although Bedlam was very much in operation in 1599, the common perception of lunatics being paraded in front of the gentry for entertainment is very much the way it was in the late 17th and 18th century.

[Dirk Gently]

I'm not sure what you mean Ian. Bethlem (Bedlam) is the world's oldest institution caring for people with mental disorders. It has been a part of London since 1247 and many people, rich and poor, have played a part in its history.

Also the Black Death was active in the 1340's in Europe until the 18th cent.


Edit to add...Oh, you found that for yourself.

[Alex]

It might not help you but it'll take your mind of The Shakespeare Code.

I've given up on trying to understand now, it's making my head hurt too much.

[Captain Tancredi]

I think it's just a case of the detail being right, but using confusing terms which jar slightly- I doubt I'm much different from most people in thinking of the Black Death as specifically the outbreak in the 14th century and of Bedlam as belonging to the 18th. There were numerous plague outbreaks which closed the theatres during Shakespeare's career- indeed one theory is that the Sonnets and longer poems were closed during one prolonged outbreak in the 1590s- so to specifically refer to the Black Death when plague was a fact of life in Elizabethan London felt wrong.

[Darren]

I gave it 4/10.

The episode looked fantastic- the beeb always do great period stuff, but the story was weak, and the "witches" looked like Terrahawks, but less scary. The pre- credits scene which should have been scary came across as a pantomime and I hated the talk-to-camera bit.
The Carrionites, when they appeared at the end, didn't seem to have much development to them and were too similar to the Gelth- all they did was swarm around.

The good bits were the drowning of Lynley, quite disturbing really, and the madness of the architect.

Nowhere near as good as Smith & Jones, but next weeks looks quite grim and dark. Fingers crossed.